Has paquiao really gotten that much better???

[!! Shawn]

IMO fromstudying his fights

it seems to me that he is about the same fighter thatfought marquez the second time and david diaz at 135

it just that he looks great and dominates these bigger guys causee he has a great chhin and can take there punches and has the power of a middle weight plus the bigger guys cant see his punches comming

because of his chin and his power he doesnt hav those huge disavantages that a smaller fighter has when moving up

IMO he is definatey more seasioned now but its more of him haveing the right style to beat bigger guys than him improving significantly

guys like marquez and morales arep4p better fighters than the welters pac beat and they are able to handle his hand and foot speed were the big guys cant captalize on openings when pac lunges in and out with his attacks

if marquez wasnt 38 i would give him as much a chance as people did for the first two fights

and i think it will be a good fight even if pacs youth ultimatly stops marquez cause jmm is a warrior and his has the style and abilty to captalize on pacs mistakkes an counter him(even if heeventually gets blown out)

your guys thoughts??

Hes much less reckless now, he picks his spots, knows when to throw power and when not to, works his angles better.

He is just an all around improved fighter.

More combinations, more control, more intelligence. Very well rounded now.

[Johnwoo8686]

Yes he has improved. His right hand is much more accurate and dangerous now than it has ever been. It seems he now does more damage with the right than the left. He is also off balance a lot less often now then he used to be. Overall I would agree he is still the same fighter he was three or four years ago but we can't act as if he has not improved whatsoever.

[ThePrince]

I honestly question anyone who calls themselves a boxing fan but can't spot the vast improvements Pacquiao has made in the last 3 years or so.

If he is the same fighter he was then, then Marquez has a real chance of winning this fight. He didn't give Manny trouble because he was stronger, faster, etc but because of his skill and on fight night both guys will be within 3 lbs of eachother, and Marquez is putting the nutritionists and doctors he hired to good use according to recent reports (Top Rank will release pics this week).

So we'll just have to wait and see how one dimensional he still is

[gatorDelux]

I honestly question anyone who calls themselves a boxing fan but can't spot the vast improvements Pacquiao has made in the last 3 years or so.

If he is the same fighter he was then, then Marquez has a real chance of winning this fight. He didn't give Manny trouble because he was stronger, faster, etc but because of his skill and on fight night both guys will be within 3 lbs of eachother, and Marquez is putting the nutritionists and doctors he hired to good use according to recent reports (Top Rank will release pics this week).

So we'll just have to wait and see how one dimensional he still is

i think he has improved

but the thread title says "that much" like peopel saying he has eviolved

i think he ois more seasoned but he is justa more experienced version of himself

and i think the biggest improvement of his game came after losing to morales

[gatorDelux]

I honestly question anyone who calls themselves a boxing fan but can't spot the vast improvements Pacquiao has made in the last 3 years or so.

If he is the same fighter he was then, then Marquez has a real chance of winning this fight. He didn't give Manny trouble because he was stronger, faster, etc but because of his skill and on fight night both guys will be within 3 lbs of eachother, and Marquez is putting the nutritionists and doctors he hired to good use according to recent reports (Top Rank will release pics this week).

So we'll just have to wait and see how one dimensional he still is

i think he has improved

but the thread title says "that much" like peopel saying he has eviolved

i think he ois more seasoned but he is justa more experienced version of himself

and i think the biggest improvement of his game came after losing to morales when he learned he had to step it up


i think he is able to put his skills on display against bigger slower guys and look phenonminaly better when he is just a littlemore seasoned and slightly more crafty imo ( not saying he isnt phenominal tho )

[ThePrince]

i think he has improved

but the thread title says "that much" like peopel saying he has eviolved

i think he ois more seasoned but he is justa more experienced version of himself

and i think the biggest improvement of his game came after losing to morales

Let's do an experiment. Show me anywhere in his early career-JMM II where he was able to counter as effectively, slip punches as well, and turn his opponent as this clip:



Then show me (same parameters, early career-JMM II) where he had as great footwork, head movement, defense, and overall ring generalship as here:




And of course, the developed right hand, now just as devastating as his left:




The footwork, head movement, variety of punches, ring generalship are vastly improved IMO.

But like I said, if I'm wrong, it'll show November 12th

[Brother Jay]

Mosley doing well against Pacquiao while he was losing every second, every minute and every round? SMH

WTF... What Mosley did is show HOW TO LOSE TO PAC. That is all.
Guess what? Mosley and Clottey opens up and they get KTFO.

Now, blueprinted as you claim, I want the next guy to run AND engage Pac and lets see how long he stays conscious.

The only way to win a boxing match is with offense. you could be Willie Pep and dodge 29 out of 30 punches in a round, but if you don't land a punch yourself, you're not winning a round.

As I stated in my other post, Mosley is not an effective boxer from the outside range. He wasn't going to effectively score against a man who keeps hopping for 12 rounds. Mosley simply does not have the stamina for that.

What Mosley did successfully show was that if one were to actually box Pacquiao is not as effective as he would normally be if one were to stand and trade.

Mosley has NEVER had better than average footwork. NEVER! Look at his fights at LW, WW and jrMW. He's never been a real mover. He's never taken advantage of angles the way that a Marquez or Mayweather have. He simply used to overwhelm guys with his tremendous speed and power. Especially at LW.

What does that have to do with anything?

Mosley is and pretty much has always been a plodder. He throws a lackluster jab to just get it seen, he shakes with a herky jerky motion as a means of feinting, and once he gets inside he lets loose with hooks and uppercuts. Watch nearly ANY Mosley fight and you'd see that. You should actually already know that.

With that said, Mosley boxed Pacquiao from a distance that he has no real success at. Vernon Forrest kept Mosley at that distance and was able to land a punch that almost KO'd Mosley. Remember that? Forrest was able to nullify Mosley's speed by controlling the distance with his JAB. To quote the late great fighter"

"Speed ain't everything. A well placed jab can shut speed down".

Mosley controlled the distance and fought where Pacquiao wasn't comfortable. Besides the Margarito fight, I have never seen Mosley use his jab as effectively as he did against Pacquiao.

Most of you people on this site have no idea of what's what. Do you even know what running in the ring looks like? If anyone wants to see what running looks like, you should go watch BHOP vs Morrade Hakkar. You will see what running really looks like in that fights.

That is not what Mosley did. Mosley was landing and was making it a boxing match. 90% of you were just upset because you expected Mosley to stand and trade ... and when he didn't, you all just labeled him a pusssy because you have no idea about what the science in the sweet science really is.

Most of you think that winning by slugging is the highest form of boxing. That's a novice understanding of the game. Boxing is a game of hitting while not getting hit. That's the objective and always has been. Its only that the best know this and execute that objective in the ring. That isn't the only way to win in boxing, but it is definitely the most ideal way for a boxer to win if he wants to keep his health and longevity intact.

For a man who has not found success boxing that way, Mosley gave a good showing but more importantly, he showed that by using that approach, one could greatly limit what Pacquiao was able to do.

That isn't an argument that suggests that Mosley made it a close match or even competitive. As I said, in order to score you have to be more offensive than defensive. Mosley did NOT do that. So if any of the peasants here would like to argue about something I'm not suggesting, go right ahead.

Clottey did the same. Clottey lost to Pacquiao because of the same reason: He did NOT engage his opponent enough to win rounds. However Clottey did use an approach where *******s would have sworn the power of Pacquiao would have stopped Joshua. It didn't even bruise Clottey.

Now, if you look at Pacquiao's face, it was tore up. It wasn't the worse face I've seen, but it certainly was the most I've seen Pacquiao beaten up since Morales and Marquez.

Pacquiao has no answers for a solid defense. Clottey showed that.

And Pacquiao has few if any answers for a boxer who boxes behind a solid jab and moves. Mosley showed us that.

Pacquiao beat both fighters because he constantly attacked, which won him rounds. He did not stop or really hurt either man though. And considering that both men he beat were plodders, I feel as though they showed a bunch without coming close to winning.

Now that will make sense to some(10%), and no sense to most of you(90%).

You'll only get out of what I wrote that which you allow yourself to consider.

[gatorDelux]

Let's do an experiment. Show me anywhere in his early career-JMM II where he was able to counter as effectively, slip punches as well, and turn his opponent as this clip:



Then show me (same parameters, early career-JMM II) where he had as great footwork, head movement, defense, and overall ring generalship as here:




And of course, the developed right hand, now just as devastating as his left:




The footwork, head movement, variety of punches, ring generalship are vastly improved IMO.

But like I said, if I'm wrong, it'll show November 12th

those guys are much slower and cant handle the kind of speed that pca has but marquez and morales couldat times

also he can time the slower guys better

i never saaid he didnt improve at all i just think he didnt eveolve or go into acucoon and reapear as a new fighter

and had delahoya been in his prime he woulndhave let pac do that nearly as easy as pac was that fight

and what im saying isnt a knock on pac

its more of a compliment to morales and marquez and them haveing great styles fo pac

morales marquez are better ranked and p4p more skilled than the wlters pac beat

[gatorDelux]

Let's do an experiment. Show me anywhere in his early career-JMM II where he was able to counter as effectively, slip punches as well, and turn his opponent as this clip:



Then show me (same parameters, early career-JMM II) where he had as great footwork, head movement, defense, and overall ring generalship as here:




And of course, the developed right hand, now just as devastating as his left:




The footwork, head movement, variety of punches, ring generalship are vastly improved IMO.

But like I said, if I'm wrong, it'll show November 12th

he came into his own and is using all of the tools he has now but the fact that these guys a 147 are slower and cant see his punches definatly helps

i think marquez will make it a good fight dont think he will win but it will be somewhat compettitve imo even if he eventually gets stopped

[x3_bazooka_x3]

Hes much less reckless now, he picks his spots, knows when to throw power and when not to, works his angles better.

He is just an all around improved fighter.

More combinations, more control, more intelligence. Very well rounded now.

agreed, that right hook that he has perfected has come along very nice, but I am more impressed with his timing his accuracey and his footwork the kid has nice footwork.