David Haye was never "undisputed" cruiserweight champion, he ducked Steve Cunningham

[The Hammer]

delicate-chinned Wladimir Klitschko, who had been previously KOed by the low-level clubfighter Purrity.

Delicate-chinned David Haye who was KOed by age 40 Carl Thompson.

Wlad dominated the first 10 rounds against Purrity but gassed because he was moving too much for a big man, showing off his skills to his home town fans in Kiev. Wlad had never needed to go past 6 rounds in his first 24 fights before Purrity, and rarely even past two rounds.

[Grimmer]

It's impossible to hold all the belts at once, because one or other of the alphabets always strip you before it can happen.

Not impossible mate, Hopkins and Tarver have both held all 4 middlweight belts at the same time.

[BennyST]

David Haye always says he was the "undisputed" cruiserweight champion.

But he had only TWO world title fights at that weight.

The first was against the fading Jean Marc Mormeck, who was shot after his two wars with O'Neil Bell.

The second was against the paper champion, delicate-chinned Enzo Maccarinelli, who had been previously KOed by the low-level clubfighter Swaby.

He never fought the best PRIME cruiserweights at that time:

1. The IBF Champion, Steve Cunningham, who has a style that Haye wouldn't have been able to deal with.

2. Tough and skillful Tomasz Adamek.

3. Hard-punching and durable Krzysztof Wlodarczyk, who is a year younger than Haye and has never been stopped.

David Haye is a fraud.

I don't know how you get any of this. All the timing is off.

Cunningham I can understand, but, Wlodarczyk? He had lost twice before Haye fought Maccarinelli, didn't have any title to fight for and his only title win was against Cunningham in Poland in which most neutral scorers had Cunningham winning easily. The only outside official for the fight scored nearly every round to Cunningham, and he also won the rematch easily but actually got the decision that time unlike the first time around.

So, in 2007 Haye was unifying the division while Wlodarczyk was losing his second fight to Cunningham in a fight he should have lost the first time round anyway. After that loss he didn't make any noise whatsoever until Haye had already left the division. Wlodarczyk was nobody as an opponent. That one's out.

Giacobbe Fragomeni was a better opponent than Wlodarczyk earlier than Wlodarczyk.

The 'shot' Mormeck, as you call him, had lost only one fight, which he revenged in the rematch and was the champ of the division with two of the main titles. How does that equal shot? That was the biggest fight at CW.

In 2007, Cunningham was winning his first world title fight, just as Haye was. The difference is Haye was winning the WBC, WBA, WBO and Ring titles at the same time as Cunningham was winning and defending the IBF title once. Cunningham was coming off a ridiculous loss in Poland and won the IBF strap.

Tomasz Adamek wasn't anything in the CW division until Haye had already left. When he finally beat Bell and Cunningham it was at the end of 2008 when Haye had announced he was leaving the division and had already had his last fight and left.

Haye from 2006-2008: beat undefeated Fragomeni for Euro title, WBC/WBA CW champ Mormeck in 2007 and WBO champ Maccarinelli and left the division early 2008.

Cunningham 2006-2008: 2 x fights with Wlodarczyk across 2006 and 2007 for both their first title shots. 'Lost' the first fight, won the second and fought Marco Huck for his first defense of title end of 2007. Didn't fight again until Haye had well and truly left division.

Adamek 2006-2008: 2006 was fighting at LHW, was beaten by Dawson in 2007 and moved up to CW with two fights against journeymen toward end of 2007 trying to recover from Dawson loss and move up in ranks. Didn't fight anyone at CW until after Haye was already undisputed champion with three of the main titles and had his last fight there.

Wlodarczyk 2006-2008: from 2006, his only major fights were with Cunningham in which he won a very disputed SD and lost the rematch. In 2007 to 2009 he fought a bunch of nobody journeymen ie. 6-14 Gabor Gyuris and didn't do anything until the draw with Fragomeni midway through 2009 when Haye was at HW preparing for WBA title against Valuev.

These guys were the top three or four fighters after Haye had left and already beaten the top title holders in the division. Works in theory and maybe even looks like you have a case on paper but it's completely untrue and at the time none of the fights meant anything nor were they even feasible or wanted.

Cunningham and Adamek didn't really make waves until their fight with each other at the very end of 2008 when Haye had already made waves at HW by knocking out Monte Barrett earlier. Wlodarczyk was nothing compared to Mormeck etc, until he won the vacnt WBC title in 2010! From 2008 until late 2009 Fragomeni was the WBC champ, whom Haye had already beaten by KO, and he was beaten by Erdei before Wlodarczyk.

You lose.

[Dave Rado]

I don't know how you get any of this. All the timing is off.

Cunningham I can understand, but, Wlodarczyk? He had lost twice before Haye fought Maccarinelli, didn't have any title to fight for and his only title win was against Cunningham in Poland in which most neutral scorers had Cunningham winning easily. The only outside official for the fight scored nearly every round to Cunningham, and he also won the rematch easily but actually got the decision that time unlike the first time around.

So, in 2007 Haye was unifying the division while Wlodarczyk was losing his second fight to Cunningham in a fight he should have lost the first time round anyway. After that loss he didn't make any noise whatsoever until Haye had already left the division. Wlodarczyk was nobody as an opponent. That one's out.

Giacobbe Fragomeni was a better opponent than Wlodarczyk earlier than Wlodarczyk.

The 'shot' Mormeck, as you call him, had lost only one fight, which he revenged in the rematch and was the champ of the division with two of the main titles. How does that equal shot? That was the biggest fight at CW.

In 2007, Cunningham was winning his first world title fight, just as Haye was. The difference is Haye was winning the WBC, WBA, WBO and Ring titles at the same time as Cunningham was winning and defending the IBF title once. Cunningham was coming off a ridiculous loss in Poland and won the IBF strap.

Tomasz Adamek wasn't anything in the CW division until Haye had already left. When he finally beat Bell and Cunningham it was at the end of 2008 when Haye had announced he was leaving the division and had already had his last fight and left.

Haye from 2006-2008: beat undefeated Fragomeni for Euro title, WBC/WBA CW champ Mormeck in 2007 and WBO champ Maccarinelli and left the division early 2008.

Cunningham 2006-2008: 2 x fights with Wlodarczyk across 2006 and 2007 for both their first title shots. 'Lost' the first fight, won the second and fought Marco Huck for his first defense of title end of 2007. Didn't fight again until Haye had well and truly left division.

Adamek 2006-2008: 2006 was fighting at LHW, was beaten by Dawson in 2007 and moved up to CW with two fights against journeymen toward end of 2007 trying to recover from Dawson loss and move up in ranks. Didn't fight anyone at CW until after Haye was already undisputed champion with three of the main titles and had his last fight there.

Wlodarczyk 2006-2008: from 2006, his only major fights were with Cunningham in which he won a very disputed SD and lost the rematch. In 2007 to 2009 he fought a bunch of nobody journeymen ie. 6-14 Gabor Gyuris and didn't do anything until the draw with Fragomeni midway through 2009 when Haye was at HW preparing for WBA title against Valuev.

These guys were the top three or four fighters after Haye had left and already beaten the top title holders in the division. Works in theory and maybe even looks like you have a case on paper but it's completely untrue and at the time none of the fights meant anything nor were they even feasible or wanted.

Cunningham and Adamek didn't really make waves until their fight with each other at the very end of 2008 when Haye had already made waves at HW by knocking out Monte Barrett earlier. Wlodarczyk was nothing compared to Mormeck etc, until he won the vacnt WBC title in 2010! From 2008 until late 2009 Fragomeni was the WBC champ, whom Haye had already beaten by KO, and he was beaten by Erdei before Wlodarczyk.

You lose.

/thread

[Dave Rado]

Not impossible mate, Hopkins and Tarver have both held all 4 middlweight belts at the same time.

You're wrong about Tarver.

You're right about Hopkins, but that was the exception that proves the rule and was only made possible by the Don King tournament - and tournaments like that almost never happen (and he was very nearly excluded from it by King). But it wasn't holding all four belts that made him the undisputed and lineal Middleweight champion; it was the fact that he cleaned out the division and beat the #1 and #2 contenders. If he'd cleaned out the division and held no belts, he'd still have been the undisputed champion.

When Taylor beat Hopkins he was immediately stripped by the IBF, but he was still the undisputed champion, as was Pavlik when he beat Taylor, as is Martinez now.

[The Hammer]

/thread

No.

BennyST hates all white boxers - he's never posted a single positive comment about one in all his time on boxingscene - so his unfairly negative comments about Wlodarzcyk should be taken with a grain of salt.

Wlod has a good chin, unlike all of Haye's other cruiserweight opponents except Fragomeni. And he's a good puncher, that's another quality Haye avoids in his opponents. Both Wlod's losses have been close decisions.

Benny denied the fact that Wlodarzcyk held the IBF world title for a time when Haye was contending at cruiserweight. Haye never tried to challenge him, but instead sought opponents with questionable chins.

And Benny never addressed the main topic of this thread: THAT DAVID HAYE DUCKED STEVE CUNNINGHAM THE IBF TITLEHOLDER AND MOVED ON TO HEAVYWEIGHT CLAIMING HE WAS THE UNDISPUTED CRUISERWEIGHT CHAMPION. Cunningham called him out:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159923

Haye needed to defeat Cunningham before making the claim of being "undisputed cruiserweight champion".

[D-MiZe]

No.

BennyST hates all white boxers - he's never posted a single positive comment about one in all his time on boxingscene - so his unfairly negative comments about Wlodarzcyk should be taken with a grain of salt.

Wlod has a good chin, unlike all of Haye's other cruiserweight opponents except Fragomeni. And he's a good puncher, that's another quality Haye avoids in his opponents. Both Wlod's losses have been close decisions.

Benny denied the fact that Wlodarzcyk held the IBF world title for a time when Haye was contending at cruiserweight. Haye never tried to challenge him, but instead sought opponents with questionable chins.

And Benny never addressed the main topic of this thread: THAT DAVID HAYE DUCKED STEVE CUNNINGHAM THE IBF TITLEHOLDER AND MOVED ON TO HEAVYWEIGHT CLAIMING HE WAS THE UNDISPUTED CRUISERWEIGHT CHAMPION. Cunningham called him out:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159923

Haye needed to defeat Cunningham before making the claim of being "undisputed cruiserweight champion".

Why would Haye duck Cunningham?

Haye avoiding punchers?

What about Enzo?

Obviously in retrospect everyone seems to think he's a ' bum '. But when he fought Haye, people were split on who would win. Enzo easily had the power to knock Haye's head off but Haye still fought him.

So apart from Cunningham, who was insignificant at the time, who else did Haye dodge?

[D-MiZe]

Translation: British Fans love paying to watch **** fights as long as a Brit wins.

Exactly.

If the fight is hyped up enough, they make it seem like the British fighter has no chance of winning. Like David against Goliath, they always try to make it look impossible.

They'd pay money to watch Haye fight Phil Mitchell.

[D-MiZe]

Fixed it for you. And if it ever does happen, which I don't regard as a certainty, real boxing fans will be rooting for the Klitschkos, whereas a year ago or even this year, most of them would have rooted for Haye.

Haye is a multi-millionaire. He is already in the top 0.1% of boxers in terms of lifetime earnings. Trying to pretend that he's some sort of pauper living hand to mouth, who needed to turn down a 50/50 deal with Wlad in order to be able to keep the wolves from the door, is just hilarious. He doesn't need the money. He's just given up being a boxer first, businessman second, which he used to be, and has become addicted to making risk-free money above anything else, and no longer gives a damn about the sport of boxing. As a result, he has lost all of his fans, apart from a few nationalistic acolytes. Ironically, that is likely to damage his long term earning power.

Nothing is risk-free in the HW division.

[S.G.]

Why would Haye duck Cunningham?

Haye avoiding punchers?

What about Enzo?

Obviously in retrospect everyone seems to think he's a ' bum '. But when he fought Haye, people were split on who would win. Enzo easily had the power to knock Haye's head off but Haye still fought him.

So apart from Cunningham, who was insignificant at the time, who else did Haye dodge?

Tbf Enzo was very much a product of the Warren hype machine. I think it's fair to say that he's a bit crap retrospectively considering what we've seen since and during the actual fight with Haye

Nothing is risk-free in the HW division.

Except Audley Harrison lol