Who is better? Joe Joyce or Luis Ortiz

[kafkod]

So? It was unable to win fights at a certain point. Does it really matter?

If If Joyce was exposed by losing to Zhang, then Wilder was also exposed by getting KOd by Zhang, correct? They both got KTFO by the same guy, at the same age.

[NihonJim]

Joyce was old as well. That's why he was fast tracked.

How did Ortiz get jerked around?

I can't say if Ortiz was jerked around per se as I don't know the story behind him coming into prominence vs Jennings.

In fairness he was only 5 years into his pro career when he had that fight, but it also took 3 and a half years for him to get a title shot after that

I will say though undoubtedly Joyce had an easier path to prominence in terms of getting fights, being put on big cards and having exposure. As a British Olympian coming through in the years UK was dominating heavyweight boxing, he wasn't lacking opportunity.

Ortiz in my opinion turned pro way too late, his title shot really should have come against Wlad, who is only a couple of years younger than him.

Ortiz belongs in the Wlad/Pulev/Povetkin type era, it was him turning pro far too late that meant he was a "prospect" at the same time as dudes 10-15 years younger than him.

[Marchegiano]

Yeah, you and Billeau2 have definitely removed all doubt. No question.

I made you cry with two lines dumbass.

[Sid-Knee]

I made you cry with two lines dumbass.

It seems you can't even count either, dumbass. It was 3 lines you wrote. And those 3 lines were embarrassing. But using your "Logic", you were crying which is why you wrote those 3 lines in the first place. So that makes you a double dumbass. That's before we even get to the value of what you wrote. Maybe all these doubles has you thinking you're making the usual McDonalds order, fatty.

[Sid-Knee]

I can't say if Ortiz was jerked around per se as I don't know the story behind him coming into prominence vs Jennings.

In fairness he was only 5 years into his pro career when he had that fight, but it also took 3 and a half years for him to get a title shot after that

I will say though undoubtedly Joyce had an easier path to prominence in terms of getting fights, being put on big cards and having exposure. As a British Olympian coming through in the years UK was dominating heavyweight boxing, he wasn't lacking opportunity.

Ortiz in my opinion turned pro way too late, his title shot really should have come against Wlad, who is only a couple of years younger than him.

Ortiz belongs in the Wlad/Pulev/Povetkin type era, it was him turning pro far too late that meant he was a "prospect" at the same time as dudes 10-15 years younger than him.

Ortiz had offers but refused to take them.

Ortiz hadn't done anything to earn a title shot. Plus he was failing drug tests.

Ortiz was getting hyped by Eddie on Matchroom cards. He was the mandatory to the WBA title that AJ held. But he first had to make a mandatory of the IBF title. Ortiz would have been next. But he ran for the Wilder fight as he knew it would be so much easier. He lost millions by making that decision. That was on him. They even got offered the AJ fight after Miller busted with a multi million dollar cheque. But his ridiculous team claimed he was worth 10 million. Even though he'd only been paid 500,000 for the Wilder fight. How do you lose that fight for that amount and have your value rise in an obscene way? Your value drops after a loss. Not rise in the extreme.

Ortiz definitely didn't earn a fight with Wlad. Plus, on the backend of Wlad's reign, he was fighting mandatories. Where was Ortiz going to fit in? He'd have to fight Wlad after only a handful of fights without anyone knowing who the hell he was.

[The D3vil]

Joyce was old as well. That's why he was fast tracked.

How did Ortiz get jerked around?

Like a lot of Cuban fighters with tricky styles, he got avoided by a lot of the top fighters of the division.

Now, he didn't help himself by getting suspended, but he should've gotten his shot before that.

[billeau2]

oh ok then why are you pretending hes so great?

not really? he has shown he can knock over tomato cans and people who take dives like malik scott. only notable opponent who was even ranked that he ko'd was ortiz. that was nice but 1 guy in your entire career and you are a huge puncher? i think not.

actually his ko of helenius proves that wrong. he went back to weak competition and ko'd them. he fought strong competition before and after and didnt get the ko and lost easily. data. facts.

Dude... Seriously? Read my posts... First of all there are seldom absolutes, Wilder is a devastating puncher but so was Shavers... However if you watch them both there are differences, like Shavers can box, move, etc... If you look at the division that time (70's) Most guys had such skills. That matters when we discuss greatness.

I know that from watching the fights, which is how one knows Wilder's punch ability...

[billeau2]

why do you keep pretending beating soft competition is something good? you actually think more highly of guys who dont fight good competition. as wilder would say mind-bobbling.

It is what it is... Your understanding of competition is flawed because you ascribe differences that are non existent.

[billeau2]

Yeah, you and Billeau2 have definitely removed all doubt. No question.

So speaketh "the gimp" who calls mediocre fighters world champs...

[billeau2]

and that level was extremely weak. if you want to pretend daniel martz and david allen are top tier guys on the level of dubois and parker then you have no credibility. pretty simple. so are they as good or not? why is beating them as good as beating top guys? if joyce was so bad how did he beat fighters who are way better than wilder? you keep saying how ortiz losing to wilder was a good thing? you keep saying watch the tape well do you watch wilder tape? he su-cks and has no boxing skill and his resume reflects someone who su-cks and has no boxing skill but was propped up with easy fights. joyce beat top level fighters, wilder beat ortiz who is only being propped up for being amazing by you and yet if hes so amazing how did he get ko'd twice by a bumbling stumbling no balance no talent hack who falls over when he throws punches? you making fun of joyce? look at wilders boxing. he never beat anyone good but ortiz who was older than he-ll. get a grip

Way better than Wilder? Lol. ALL THE competition is weak! Ful! You just don't get it...