Who is better? Joe Joyce or Luis Ortiz

[billeau2]

The question was :Who was the better fighter?

It didn't mention strength or head to head. But the answer to both of those is still Joyce. But i'll put this to you. Who would win in a head to head fight. Vitali or Ali? But who had the better career? Douglas beat Tyson in a head to head. Baldomir beat Judah in a head to head. But guess what, the winner wasn't the overall better fighter than the one they beat.

Ortiz wasn't very skilled either. He had solid skills. But nothing more. He wasn't an awkward southpaw. He wasn't fast. He wasn't elusive. He was damn slow if we're being honest.

Joyce came into the sport in his twilight too. Are you even aware of what you're writing?

Do you think Ortiz is better than Foreman and Frazier? Simple question? They were basic too.

Dubois was inexperienced? But after 5 more fights, he was now fully fledged? Haha.

You think Ortiz is physically stronger than Joyce? Oh shut up. You're talking shlt.

What was this blueprint for Joyce by the way?

Hey Gimp...

Your all over the place in this post... calm down and get your thoughts straight. Semantics... Regardless Ortiz at his best beats Joyce, Joyce had the better career, call it what you want. What does Vitalie versus Ali have to do with anything? And regarding Judah... so? Point being.

Again your going off in another tangent.

[billeau2]

Wait, Zhang isn't that good because he throws about 4 punches a round. But Wilder is good, even though he throws less and doesn't have the accomplishments Zhang does? Right. Makes perfect sense.

If i can prove you wrong that Zhang threw more punches than the nonsense you're coming out with against Joyce, will you shut your account down and f3ck off? Have we got a deal?

I read this cesspit from time to time but don't always make any comments. But i've seen you come out with these comments before about Joyce/Ortiz so needed to make sure you know you're a full on idiot. It has to be done i'm afraid.

Just imagine a gimp could make a fool out of you . What does that make you?

You now think your Parker comments are not opinions, but facts? Not only that, but they're shlt opinions. It's the style of the matchup. Wilder had been out of the ring for a long time and was scared to throw any punches. Zhang didn't have someone stand right in front of him because Parker has the better foot movement. It's styles. Who else has Parker beat since the Joyce loss?

Young was able to dominate Foreman but lost to bums. Guess what, it's a style thing. Frazier was able to beat Ali but not Foreman. Norton was able to beat Ali 3 times but not Foreman. You get it now? Or are you just this ******.

Ortiz dominated garbage that anyone at a decent level would dominate. Why, who did he dominate that was somebody of note?

What are we talking about here with you saying Ortiz was the stronger fighter? Physical strength or overall skill and technique?

Were are you getting this assumption that people on this thread didn't watch any of these fights? Name them and say what fights they didn't watch? And then tell us how you came to this conclusion.

No gimp, you look foolish not I. Lol... Wilder did not gas out after 6 rounds...

Gimp I make no deals with those designed to amuse... You amuse me and I respond! Ok? Your all over the place.. triggered no doubt lol. Basically there is nothing worth responding to in this unorganized mess of a post... You are alas, all over the place gimp...

[Sid-Knee]

Like a lot of Cuban fighters with tricky styles, he got avoided by a lot of the top fighters of the division.

Now, he didn't help himself by getting suspended, but he should've gotten his shot before that.

Ortiz didn't have a tricky style though. He wasn't an awkward southpaw. And his movement is definitely not something to write home about.

Who avoided him? All i saw was Ortiz getting opportunities after talking then backing away to fight some more bums.

At which title should Ortiz have got a shot at? And at which point in time?

[Sid-Knee]

Hey Gimp...

Your all over the place in this post... calm down and get your thoughts straight. Semantics... Regardless Ortiz at his best beats Joyce, Joyce had the better career, call it what you want. What does Vitalie versus Ali have to do with anything? And regarding Judah... so? Point being.

Again your going off in another tangent.

Nothing is all over the place. They're straight questions to all the laughable comments you've made on here laced with hypocrisy and insanity.

We'll go over those points one at a time and we'll see you unable to justify any of them.

You said this...

"Yes Joyce was exposed... When was the last time he beat a decent fighter?"

Tell me who Ortiz, Wilder and Frazier beat after their first defeat. It's a reasonable question to your comments. The only problem would be your inability to justify the nonsense you're writing.

And i've already told you. A gimp that is making a fool out of you. It isn't difficult when i'm dealing with this level of ******ity. I look forward to your intellectual deflections.

[billeau2]

Nothing is all over the place. They're straight questions to all the laughable comments you've made on here laced with hypocrisy and insanity.

We'll go over those points one at a time and we'll see you unable to justify any of them.

You said this...

"Yes Joyce was exposed... When was the last time he beat a decent fighter?"

Tell me who Ortiz, Wilder and Frazier beat after their first defeat. It's a reasonable question to your comments. The only problem would be your inability to justify the nonsense you're writing.

And i've already told you. A gimp that is making a fool out of you. It isn't difficult when i'm dealing with this level of ******ity. I look forward to your intellectual deflections.

No no... I made my points and justified them... they are in the thread. You? Started your usual insanity, going all over the place... But hey it is what makes you amusing, however? I do not do insane tangents ...

Here is what you and Daggum do not get: Levels to the game... At a casual inspection certain things are indeed consistent. However when put to close scrutiny? when fighters are more carefully dissected? when the finer points of skill sets, wins, losses, and those aspects that link up to those events are carefully scrutinized? a different picture can emerge. For example: Look at a series of graphs for something like *******, where there appears to be much volatility, day to day, as compared to month to month where there is less, and then we see the graph for years, which has a consistent upward trajectory... Someone like me? I then seek to understand WHY those graphs show a different picture...

Superficially one can ignore how weak the division has been, pretending to be able to carve out distinctions amongst fighters who are workmanlike at best. One can pretend to ignore changes, like when a fighter gets better, worse, puts it together, is exposed, shot, etc... One can choose to ignore tape showing skills, and aspects of skills...ALL IN THE NAME of SUBJECTIVE RANKING, and looking at the fighters from one perspective (see graph example). People who are not just Euro super fans can see a fighter like Ortiz has skills that characterize many of the Cuban fighters that come over LATE.

Wilder's hand speed, his foot speed can be observed... And these observations are confirmed. You actually believe (if I read you right) that Vitalie Klitsko would beat Ali... lol. Need I say more?

So no... we will not go over anything Gimp. My points are made. Rebuttals that suggest Ali would lose to Vitalie Klitsko and some of the other ridiculous Joshuastan garbage cannot seriously be debated.

[champion4ever]

Right now. I would say Luis Ortiz and it's not even close.

[billeau2]

Ortiz didn't have a tricky style though. He wasn't an awkward southpaw. And his movement is definitely not something to write home about.

Who avoided him? All i saw was Ortiz getting opportunities after talking then backing away to fight some more bums.

At which title should Ortiz have got a shot at? And at which point in time?

So you assume like most super Eurofans that you know the finer points of negotiations. Falling for the crap that Eddie Hearn and his ilk manufacture. You haven't a clue about these negotiations... None of us do. What we see are the results of these negotiations... The process? It is media controlled, and used to manipulate fans who do not know better... casuals like you Gimp! .

It was years before Don King and later Satanic Bob were exposed to fans...

[billeau2]

now you are just playing semantics to try and save face. ortiz isnt better but hes stronger? based on what? beating bums up until he lost to wilder? based on having a crap resume? aka based on fantasy. you can say i think ortiz would have beaten joyce head to head thats fine, but hes not stronger because the very things that you say make him better arent true. he has great skills and all this but yet he was ko'd by wilder twice? lost to ruiz? nearly lost to charles martin being knocked down 5 times or something hilarious. where did his skills go when he stepped up? vanished. if joyce didnt have some sort of skill how did he beat top guys?

No... In a fight at a relative good time in either fighters' career, prime for prime prefarably, Ortiz would be victorious. No semantics, better get the Gimp back to explain things...

[billeau2]

If If Joyce was exposed by losing to Zhang, then Wilder was also exposed by getting KOd by Zhang, correct? They both got KTFO by the same guy, at the same age.

Nope. Sometimes age does not factor in... Bernard Hopkins, etc... lets look at things CAREFULLY... How did both men start losing? Joyce did the same things and could not make adjustments... Watch the fight smedrick... Joyce is getting punched in the face... Joyce is not making adjustments, basic defensive adjustments... Other fighters see this "Ohhh? look at that." Wilder? Wilder could not pull the trigger, the biggest most definite sign of a shot fighter: Can no longer throw punches, there is hesitation.

See how this works? Now if you want to say we have a difference of opinion and neither of us knows for sure about Joyce versus Wilder... Fine BUT LOOK AT THE BASIS OF OUR CONTRARY OPINIONS Smeddy... " You want to make generalizations regarding triangle theory. I am looking at specific, empirical, verifiable actions that have been proven if ONE WATCHES THE FIGHTS!!!!

See how this works? Tell the gimp as well... please.

[kafkod]

Right now. I would say Luis Ortiz and it's not even close.

How can you possibly be so sure about that? Ortiz has won one fight in the last 2 and a half years, against a journeyman with 22 KO defeats on his record, and that was a year ago.