Who is better? Joe Joyce or Luis Ortiz

[daggum]

No argument with the first sentence. Both Dubois and Parker have gelled and become better fighters. They have done so since facing Joyce. That's just a fact. You can choose to ignore it.

We don't really know how good Parker is yet. Dubois did legitimately beat Joshua whom has managed to lose to the best lol. But even Dubois lost to the best, and is yet to face one of the upcoming very talented guys who could potentially change the division, like Martin Bakole.

So making all these distinctions as of yet is meaningless. The fact that Joyce has some scalps certainly means he had a better career but it doesn't mean it's a stronger fighter than Ortiz.

now you are just playing semantics to try and save face. ortiz isnt better but hes stronger? based on what? beating bums up until he lost to wilder? based on having a crap resume? aka based on fantasy. you can say i think ortiz would have beaten joyce head to head thats fine, but hes not stronger because the very things that you say make him better arent true. he has great skills and all this but yet he was ko'd by wilder twice? lost to ruiz? nearly lost to charles martin being knocked down 5 times or something hilarious. where did his skills go when he stepped up? vanished. if joyce didnt have some sort of skill how did he beat top guys?

[daggum]

Not really a fan of Wilder. I do tend to like the Cuban fighters. Wilder has shown proof that he is a devastating puncher. Because that proof has to be ascertained through watching his performance rather than evaluating his record does not negate the fact. It can be verified through his fights with fury. He can also be verified that after those fights he was effectively shot.

oh ok then why are you pretending hes so great?

not really? he has shown he can knock over tomato cans and people who take dives like malik scott. only notable opponent who was even ranked that he ko'd was ortiz. that was nice but 1 guy in your entire career and you are a huge puncher? i think not.

actually his ko of helenius proves that wrong. he went back to weak competition and ko'd them. he fought strong competition before and after and didnt get the ko and lost easily. data. facts.

[Sid-Knee]

If I may dovetail... The discussion wasn't necessarily who had a better career. It was regarding who on a head-to-head basis was a stronger fighter. And people just take his snapshot of each fighter to make that determination.

Ortiz was a very skilled fighter who came in in his Twilight to the professionals with a real bona fide tool box. This is evident from watching him fight.

Joyce is to be commended, he came in late and developed a style that was successful primarily based on the weakness of the division. He beat a very inexperienced dubois, and claimed a few other scalps in the division before the blueprint came out.

So the question becomes would Ortiz have been able to overcome this approach used by Joyce... He'd be the stronger fighter in a match? And that to me should be pretty easy to answer The answer being that Ortiz would win. I have no problem with even saying that Joyce had a better career. That's never been my point. But these Euro bombs get crazy lol they even brought Sid knee back out of the closet!

When that dunce Daggum faltered, they brought out the gimp!

The question was :Who was the better fighter?

It didn't mention strength or head to head. But the answer to both of those is still Joyce. But i'll put this to you. Who would win in a head to head fight. Vitali or Ali? But who had the better career? Douglas beat Tyson in a head to head. Baldomir beat Judah in a head to head. But guess what, the winner wasn't the overall better fighter than the one they beat.

Ortiz wasn't very skilled either. He had solid skills. But nothing more. He wasn't an awkward southpaw. He wasn't fast. He wasn't elusive. He was damn slow if we're being honest.

Joyce came into the sport in his twilight too. Are you even aware of what you're writing?

Do you think Ortiz is better than Foreman and Frazier? Simple question? They were basic too.

Dubois was inexperienced? But after 5 more fights, he was now fully fledged? Haha.

You think Ortiz is physically stronger than Joyce? Oh shut up. You're talking shlt.

What was this blueprint for Joyce by the way?

[Sid-Knee]

They brought out the gimp God help us lol. Look at when these fights took place. Look at the fights themselves. Joyce did very well for his limited approach. His career even with the losses is better than Ortiz but he's not the stronger fighter. Zhang is not that good. He throws three or four punches around and gases. Parker has just come into his own and was work in progress for most of his younger career. These are just facts.

Ortiz can throw every punch, moves well, and dominated the level of competition he faced until he faced Wilder. Joyce was the beneficiary of a week division and this includes the fighters Ortiz fought as well.. which is why saying Joyce had the better career it's fine. But he's not a stronger fighter than Ortiz. Levels to the game Gimp...

Just beating other fighters, not considering losses, not watching the actual fights, and not analyzing things properly is what casuals do!

Wait, Zhang isn't that good because he throws about 4 punches a round. But Wilder is good, even though he throws less and doesn't have the accomplishments Zhang does? Right. Makes perfect sense.

If i can prove you wrong that Zhang threw more punches than the nonsense you're coming out with against Joyce, will you shut your account down and f3ck off? Have we got a deal?

I read this cesspit from time to time but don't always make any comments. But i've seen you come out with these comments before about Joyce/Ortiz so needed to make sure you know you're a full on idiot. It has to be done i'm afraid.

Just imagine a gimp could make a fool out of you . What does that make you?

You now think your Parker comments are not opinions, but facts? Not only that, but they're shlt opinions. It's the style of the matchup. Wilder had been out of the ring for a long time and was scared to throw any punches. Zhang didn't have someone stand right in front of him because Parker has the better foot movement. It's styles. Who else has Parker beat since the Joyce loss?

Young was able to dominate Foreman but lost to bums. Guess what, it's a style thing. Frazier was able to beat Ali but not Foreman. Norton was able to beat Ali 3 times but not Foreman. You get it now? Or are you just this ******.

Ortiz dominated garbage that anyone at a decent level would dominate. Why, who did he dominate that was somebody of note?

What are we talking about here with you saying Ortiz was the stronger fighter? Physical strength or overall skill and technique?

Were are you getting this assumption that people on this thread didn't watch any of these fights? Name them and say what fights they didn't watch? And then tell us how you came to this conclusion.

[Sid-Knee]

hes just doing classic fanboy circular logic. wilder was great for beating ortiz, ortiz was great for losing to wilder? makes no sense of course. parker and dubois have both been in with the best and they won some and lost some. ortiz and wilder lost to everyone else not named ortiz and wilder.

It's straight crazy what he's saying. None of it makes any sense. The contradictions and hypocrisy he's coming out with are insane. Apparently, Ortiz is better than Joyce because all Joyce did was beat fighters in a weak division. Forget that Dubois and Parker are superior to Ortiz with Ortiz beating nothing but garbage before Wilder. But apparently, Ortiz wasn't in a weak era and that's why he was able to beat those bums, and therefore prove he was better than Joyce.

Makes perfect sense doesn't it? LOL. Seriously, he must have gone through a whole tube of glue in one sitting. It's the only explanation. No one is this backwards are they. Are they?

[Sid-Knee]

No argument with the first sentence. Both Dubois and Parker have gelled and become better fighters. They have done so since facing Joyce. That's just a fact. You can choose to ignore it.

We don't really know how good Parker is yet. Dubois did legitimately beat Joshua whom has managed to lose to the best lol. But even Dubois lost to the best, and is yet to face one of the upcoming very talented guys who could potentially change the division, like Martin Bakole.

So making all these distinctions as of yet is meaningless. The fact that Joyce has some scalps certainly means he had a better career but it doesn't mean it's a stronger fighter than Ortiz.

Joshua always lost to the best? He never beat any world class fighters? No one has ever lost to world class fighters? But if AJ won against Dubois, Dubois would be a bum? But because he lost, Dubois is now the best?

Please read everything you write carefully and see if you can laugh at it the way i am over here.

Explain your fact of Parker being better now than when he faced Joyce. Break it all down for me. I want these supposed facts in great detail.

A sloppy Bakole is now someone who is very talented? Losing to Hunter doesn't stand against him? Beating no one of note is a positive but beating actual world class fighters does stand against you?

Dubois faced Joyce and Hrgovic when they were upcoming. But apparently, it would be the first time if he were to face Bakole. Oh, right.

[Sid-Knee]

Not really a fan of Wilder. I do tend to like the Cuban fighters. Wilder has shown proof that he is a devastating puncher. Because that proof has to be ascertained through watching his performance rather than evaluating his record does not negate the fact. It can be verified through his fights with fury. He can also be verified that after those fights he was effectively shot.

Zhang's power can be verified through his fights with Joyce. A fighter with a better chin than Fury. Joyce can also be verified after the Zhang fights to be effectively shot.

Some more great logic there.

[The D3vil]

The prime Ortiz was better, but he got jerked around like Cuban fighters often do.

Joyce was fast tracked for success like British fighters tend to be.

By the time Ortiz got his shot, he was too old.

[BirdSong]

from what i remember of ortiz king kong he was mega bigged up with wilder fannys in the day as beingsome monster on wilders resume and noone else could possibly beat him but wilder lol

[Sid-Knee]

The prime Ortiz was better, but he got jerked around like Cuban fighters often do.

Joyce was fast tracked for success like British fighters tend to be.

By the time Ortiz got his shot, he was too old.

Joyce was old as well. That's why he was fast tracked.

How did Ortiz get jerked around?