Who is better? Joe Joyce or Luis Ortiz

[daggum]

It's better to let people assume you're dumb as **** than to speak and confirm your dumbassery beyond all doubt.

you didnt even say that quote right but good try? im just asking who ortiz beat that would make you say hes better than joyce. i dont see how its close and to bring up losses makes no sense, its like saying jordan lost a bunch when he was with the wizards. so? he still put in work. joyce put the work in and got some very good wins, ortiz didnt. why not respect the man with the far better resume? this isnt about fantasy boxing, its about what happened in reality. joyce has the far better resume do you disagree?

[billeau2]

Joyce was exposed? By losing to a world class fighter? Doesn't that mean all fighters are "Exposed" when they lose? That includes Ortiz against Wilder. You know, the guy who beat no one outside of.... Ortiz? Yet Daggum is the idiot here? There's an idiot. But it isn't Daggum. Take a guess who it clearly is. You can't miss them. Their comments are too ridiculous for anyone to miss them.

This isn't/wasn't a bad era. Many other era's were much worse.

Maybe Joyce got his gimmick from where Foreman got his. You know, before he was "Exposed" and his frantic pressure didn't work any more.

Yes Joyce was exposed... When was the last time he beat a decent fighter?

Has a lot to do with watching the way a fighter loses... You know tape? Watching the actual fight?

You come here every once in awhile to vent ****** crap. It's a joke. You're a joke lol.

[billeau2]

Joyce was 38 years old when he got KOd by Zhang. The same age Wilder was when he got KOd by Zhang.

Joe didn't get exposed. He started boxing late and just ran out of time.

So? It was unable to win fights at a certain point. Does it really matter?

[billeau2]

Eurobums protecting them euro bums.

Joyce too slow Joyce he got his ass kicked by over the hill contenders.

Ortiz has only ever lost to champions and never let it be easy.

In all their posts the one thing that is never discussed is watching the actual fights. It is assumed that because something happened according to some mechanism that it must be the same.

So for example, even though Wilder was shot horribly when he fought Zang, it's the exact same process as when Joyce for Zhang. And then there's no discussion of what follows. Everything to the Euro bumps occurs in a vacuum lol. Then they go and reanimate Sid knee, The worst of the lot lol.

[billeau2]

I totally agree that Joyce had the better amateur career and winning a medal and all but look at Yoka
He also won ina medal in the amateurs but turned out to not be great in the pros
The question is who do you think is the better boxer
Imo , it’s clearly Ortiz
We are not comparing money or careers but just skills
Did it ever hit you maybe Ortiz didn’t get all the breaks or opportunities that Joyce might have had ???
Imho , Joyce was damn lucky to have been blessed with that granite chin cause if he wouldn’t of had it , I don’t think he would of been so successful

If I may dovetail... The discussion wasn't necessarily who had a better career. It was regarding who on a head-to-head basis was a stronger fighter. And people just take his snapshot of each fighter to make that determination.

Ortiz was a very skilled fighter who came in in his Twilight to the professionals with a real bona fide tool box. This is evident from watching him fight.

Joyce is to be commended, he came in late and developed a style that was successful primarily based on the weakness of the division. He beat a very inexperienced dubois, and claimed a few other scalps in the division before the blueprint came out.

So the question becomes would Ortiz have been able to overcome this approach used by Joyce... He'd be the stronger fighter in a match? And that to me should be pretty easy to answer The answer being that Ortiz would win. I have no problem with even saying that Joyce had a better career. That's never been my point. But these Euro bombs get crazy lol they even brought Sid knee back out of the closet!

When that dunce Daggum faltered, they brought out the gimp!

[Sid-Knee]

Eurobums protecting them euro bums.

Joyce too slow Joyce he got his ass kicked by over the hill contenders.

Ortiz has only ever lost to champions and never let it be easy.

Bums don't go on to have a couple of world class wins. Bums have no world class wins. Like Wilder and Ortiz.

The only ones pushing a deranged narrative here that doesn't stand up to scrutiny are the likes of you. That's protecting. People like me are just making sure people like you know how deranged your narrative is.

Joyce is shot. It happens. But the only one who was over the hill, was Chisora. When both fighters are at this point in their careers, anything can happen.

Wilder was never a real champion. What world can you be champion of without any world class victories? That doesn't sound like any champion i understand. It needs to be supported. I'd never consider anyone who doesn't have any world class wins as a real champion. A sport would have to be that of a bottom feeder to have people walking around calling themselves champion with zero substance. What other sport has people walking around calling themselves world champion without any substance involved?

Who did Ortiz ever fight other than Ruiz and Wilder? Pretty easy to only lose to these two when they're the only recognised names there. Which means, anyone who had anything about them, he lost to.

Wait, you think Zhang in the first fight and Chisora had it easy with Joyce? Look, stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking. Please. For my sake if not yours.

[billeau2]

Carnera was controlled by the mob. It was all pre-planned. Until it wasn't. It's well documented.

Joyce is like Carnera when better fighters came along? What, like Zhang who went on to lose to a Joyce victim in Parker?

Parker and Dubois were out of shape? Haha, what???

If you discover logic on any of your travels. Let me know. Because this certainly isn't it. Not by a long shot.

Ortiz was a nobody amateur or pro. For a reason. He was a nobody. A never was. Ortiz losing at that age is par for the cause. But it was Wilder? Same with Fury. Fury lives a life not suited to a top level athlete.

How do you think Joyce was affected in the fights against Zhang? But he was exposed but Ortiz wasn't? He was just changed as a fighter? LOL. The funny thing is, you're not even trolling. What's it like up there in the clouds? Not even crack can have someone removed from this amount of logic. F3ck me.

They brought out the gimp God help us lol. Look at when these fights took place. Look at the fights themselves. Joyce did very well for his limited approach. His career even with the losses is better than Ortiz but he's not the stronger fighter. Zhang is not that good. He throws three or four punches around and gases. Parker has just come into his own and was work in progress for most of his younger career. These are just facts.

Ortiz can throw every punch, moves well, and dominated the level of competition he faced until he faced Wilder. Joyce was the beneficiary of a week division and this includes the fighters Ortiz fought as well.. which is why saying Joyce had the better career it's fine. But he's not a stronger fighter than Ortiz. Levels to the game Gimp...

Just beating other fighters, not considering losses, not watching the actual fights, and not analyzing things properly is what casuals do!

[Sid-Knee]

It's better to let people assume you're dumb as **** than to speak and confirm your dumbassery beyond all doubt.

Yeah, you and Billeau2 have definitely removed all doubt. No question.

[billeau2]

Whether willingly or not he didn’t fight the good opposition that Joyce did
How long you’ve been watching boxing ???
In my eyes , Ortiz is a way better boxer than Joyce
Joyce’s claim to fame is his chin
If he didn’t have such a strong chin he never would of gotten to where he is
The fact that Joyce’s defence is his face might explain it better for you

It's so frustrating lol. People are trying to make a case that the competition faced by Joyce is vastly distinct from that face by Ortiz. Then they are not looking at the actual fighters and the actual fights. We see evidence... Ortiz never lost a professional fight until he fought Wilder... It's there lol.

Then they want to say that Joyce's approach, coming in face first unable to make any adjustments, and losing once people figured this out in the division... Which took a while because the division is weak... Has no meaning compared to the fact that Wilder beating Ortiz and losing to Fury is the only thing showing his primacy.

And when all else fails and you cannot prop up the fighters in this week division, you make distinctions between fighters like Jennings and fighters like chisora. Work been like fighters veteran skills but nothing that would show itself in a strong heavyweight division.

[Sid-Knee]

Yes Joyce was exposed... When was the last time he beat a decent fighter?

Has a lot to do with watching the way a fighter loses... You know tape? Watching the actual fight?

You come here every once in awhile to vent ****** crap. It's a joke. You're a joke lol.

Wilder, Ortiz and Frazier were exposed then. When did they last have a decent win after they lost the first time?

Frazier and Wilder lost in one sided fashion. Joyce was actually ahead on my card at the time of stoppage in the first fight but the ref wouldn't allow him to continue because of the eye. Zhang was fast running out of steam too.

I'm not the one talking crap here. You are. And i don't come here that often because it's filled with idiots like you. Why would i want to go through the same situation over and over again where the idiocy is obvious with all the hypocrisy and contradictions? Then there's the refusing the answer basic questions to the comments that they made. They deflect like a looney. Who would want to do that all the time?