Remember That One Time an MMA Fighter with 0 Boxing Experience Bashed the heavyweight champ???? LMFAO

[HeadShots]

Mercer was older than Sylvia, dummy. You're not very good at this.

they both out of prime, it doesn't matter.



Couture was older than Toney.


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[HeadShots]

You've got it backwards!

Francis Ngannou trained boxing in this youth, went to France to continue his boxing training, and decided to take his Boxing into MMGai, where he wiped the floor with the best grapplers and kickers the heavyweight division there ever saw!!!


Swallowing MMGai Whole WAS his amateur career.
Now he's doing Big boy boxing and making big boy money, like all amateurs aspire to do.

And he's great!!

....unless there's some Muay Thai, Karate, Jujitsu, Judo or Freestyle background that never made it into his Bio.

incorrect. he was digging in a sandmine in his youth. you are making things up.


he never trained martial arts until he was in his late 20's. the fact is he never had an amateur or pro boxing match. everybody has thrown punches on a punching bag. that's very far removed from having an amateur pedigree to a pro pedigree.

[Spray_resistant]

And yet it's much harder to excel going from division to division at the lighter weights. For instance, it's much less likely for a former 108lber to do well at 122 than it is for a guy starting at 130-135 to do well at 147.

The percentage of the move up is far more significant than the number of lbs/kg.

[crimsonfalcon07]

The percentage of the move up is far more significant than the number of lbs/kg.

What do you mean by that? If you're referring to percentage of the move up as compared to bodyweight, it should still heavily favor the larger weight divisions. Just going from light heavy to cruiser is a 14.3 percent jump from original. Going four divisions from 105 to 118 is only 12%. But you have guys regularly succeeding going from 168, 175, 200. Look at Badou Jack, for example.

But it's very rare to see someone go a similar percentage at the lower weights. In fact, only Inoue and Pacquiao achieved that. If percentage and number of fighters at the division told the whole story, we ought to be swimming in 4 division champions in the lower weights. But we aren't.

In fact, it's more rare to be a 2-3 division champ at the lower weights than anywhere from light to the top, even though there's more fighters and a higher percentage change. The most heavily populated divisions are littered with 2-3 division champs. Average age of a champion goes up in the higher classes too. Donaire was positively ancient for the lighter weights, but he's right around the same age as guys like Beterbiev, Usyk, Wilder, Zhang, etc.

[Spray_resistant]

What do you mean by that? If you're referring to percentage of the move up as compared to bodyweight, it should still heavily favor the larger weight divisions. Just going from light heavy to cruiser is a 14.3 percent jump from original. Going four divisions from 105 to 118 is only 12%. But you have guys regularly succeeding going from 168, 175, 200. Look at Badou Jack, for example.

But it's very rare to see someone go a similar percentage at the lower weights. In fact, only Inoue and Pacquiao achieved that. If percentage and number of fighters at the division told the whole story, we ought to be swimming in 4 division champions in the lower weights. But we aren't.

In fact, it's more rare to be a 2-3 division champ at the lower weights than anywhere from light to the top, even though there's more fighters and a higher percentage change. The most heavily populated divisions are littered with 2-3 division champs. Average age of a champion goes up in the higher classes too. Donaire was positively ancient for the lighter weights, but he's right around the same age as guys like Beterbiev, Usyk, Wilder, Zhang, etc.

Well what could we attribute that to? Maybe a deeper talent pool? If there are more fighters in the heavier divisions, it stands to reason that better fighters tend to emerge around weight classes with the most fighters thus the top fighters would be more talented than fighters in lower weight classes. If this is the case then it makes sense that the cream of the crop at welter could go up to 154 or 160 and succeed.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Well what could we attribute that to? Maybe a deeper talent pool? If there are more fighters in the heavier divisions, it stands to reason that better fighters tend to emerge around weight classes with the most fighters thus the top fighters would be more talented than fighters in lower weight classes. If this is the case then it makes sense that the cream of the crop at welter could go up to 154 or 160 and succeed.

That doesn't really make sense to me, because if there's more talented fighters, then it would be harder, not easier to move up.

I thought once that maybe it was because there's more KO's at higher weight classes, but that's actually been studied, and while it's nominally true, it's way closer than one would think.

I tend to think that there's overall more skill required at the lower weight divisions. Take guys like prime Chocolatito and imagine if he had started his career at 135... A fighter with his skill set at 147 or 160/8 would be the biggest star in the world. Or, just looking at skills, take the Moloney brothers as an example. They get dismissed as trash on here all the time, but look at the skills they exhibit. Good active guards, good footwork. Can cut off the ring and pressure, throw combos upstairs and down, fight going forward or backwards, they use feints, and frequently take angles to land shots. Decent KO ratios so they aren't pillow fisted. And those are just guys mostly at the contender level. Age catches up fast when you have to have that kind of skill and volume just to compete.

Another issue could be that a lot of them are from less advantaged countries and they're not in weight classes that pay well. So they have to take more dangerous fights than their compatriots in higher weight classes just to make money. Guys who aren't as skilled can't stay active in the weight pool because it doesn't pay well enough. So while the talent pool is smaller, it's actually deeper in relevant ways.

Anyways, point is that it's not as simple as it looks sometimes. I think people overlook the lower weight classes and think there's no skill and talent pool there, and that's not the case. For fans of the sweet science, there's still plenty to appreciate.

[Spray_resistant]

That doesn't really make sense to me, because if there's more talented fighters, then it would be harder, not easier to move up.

I thought once that maybe it was because there's more KO's at higher weight classes, but that's actually been studied, and while it's nominally true, it's way closer than one would think.

I tend to think that there's overall more skill required at the lower weight divisions. Take guys like prime Chocolatito and imagine if he had started his career at 135... A fighter with his skill set at 147 or 160/8 would be the biggest star in the world. Or, just looking at skills, take the Moloney brothers as an example. They get dismissed as trash on here all the time, but look at the skills they exhibit. Good active guards, good footwork. Can cut off the ring and pressure, throw combos upstairs and down, fight going forward or backwards, they use feints, and frequently take angles to land shots. Decent KO ratios so they aren't pillow fisted. And those are just guys mostly at the contender level. Age catches up fast when you have to have that kind of skill and volume just to compete.

Another issue could be that a lot of them are from less advantaged countries and they're not in weight classes that pay well. So they have to take more dangerous fights than their compatriots in higher weight classes just to make money. Guys who aren't as skilled can't stay active in the weight pool because it doesn't pay well enough. So while the talent pool is smaller, it's actually deeper in relevant ways.

Anyways, point is that it's not as simple as it looks sometimes. I think people overlook the lower weight classes and think there's no skill and talent pool there, and that's not the case. For fans of the sweet science, there's still plenty to appreciate.

Of course there is plenty to appreciate but really high quality fighters are extremely rare, alot of guys working regular jobs could get to the contender level with dedication but the same would happen to them that happens to the actual C level fighters when they face elite talent.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Of course there is plenty to appreciate but really high quality fighters are extremely rare, alot of guys working regular jobs could get to the contender level with dedication but the same would happen to them that happens to the actual C level fighters when they face elite talent.

I'm not sure I agree. Because at the lower levels I see guys with skill sets that would be considered elite if they were in a bigger division all the time. Right now, at the lower weight divisions, you've got guys like Inoue, with Chocolatito, Estrada, and Donaire on the way out, and up and comers like Bam Rodriguez, Junto Nakatani, and I'll throw newcomer Tenshin Nasukawa in as well, who were, or are likely to be, elite level fighters. Take the examples I mentioned earlier and think about fighters at higher weight classes and see if they have the same skills.

Or, if it suits better, imagine shrinking guys down and keeping their same skills and work rates. How do you honestly think they'd do at the lower weight classes? Like David Benavidez if he were sized for 115. How's he going to hold up skill for skill? How about Canelo? How would he do at 115 vs Chocolatito, prime v prime, skill v skill?

[Spray_resistant]

I'm not sure I agree. Because at the lower levels I see guys with skill sets that would be considered elite if they were in a bigger division all the time. Right now, at the lower weight divisions, you've got guys like Inoue, with Chocolatito, Estrada, and Donaire on the way out, and up and comers like Bam Rodriguez, Junto Nakatani, and I'll throw newcomer Tenshin Nasukawa in as well, who were, or are likely to be, elite level fighters. Take the examples I mentioned earlier and think about fighters at higher weight classes and see if they have the same skills.

Or, if it suits better, imagine shrinking guys down and keeping their same skills and work rates. How do you honestly think they'd do at the lower weight classes? Like David Benavidez if he were sized for 115. How's he going to hold up skill for skill? How about Canelo? How would he do at 115 vs Chocolatito, prime v prime, skill v skill?

It is something to think about because without his size advantage in the ring over most 168lbers Benavidez's style wouldn't work as well and no one is going to have such a significant weight advantage at lower weights due to the percentage of a body weight cut possible and still come in ring to perform.
Maybe you have to be better at smaller weights because physical advantages are nullified by what the human body can do in terms of cuts and rehydrating so the best become the best because they're more skillful. This might not necessarily be the case at higher weights because bigger fighters or "weight bullies" can overcome skill gaps with physical tools.

[Atypicalbrit]

Meh, Fury is what fury is.

He's always been a very up and down fighter, floored by Pajkic and that other no name Latvian, floored by Cunningham, looked like ****e vs Wallin.

Then he shows up and performs like he did vs Wlad and Wilder.

I said Ngannou actually has a chance because he's fighting fury, who isn't a professional he's just this bizzare talented wildcard.

Also as I said in another thread, Ngannou is better than people like Gerald Washington and guys of that ilk who are "real boxers". Spending longer training doesn't make you better than a raw novice with 10x your talent. I could spend 15 years training and I won't be as good as Ngannou was in his first boxing match...