I doubt Usyk would be 2 division champion in any other era

[NEETzschean]

Today's fighters get more overhyped in my opinion. Seems to be a millenial/social media thing to declare someone/something GOAT based on very little.

Ali was a clear, consistent and active champion. Came through two epic encounters in the Rumble in the Jungle and Thrilla in Manila, the latter being a hellacious battle, in intense heat, that most can barely comprehend much less compete in. I rate Lennox Lewis highly but I doubt even he would come through something like that.

There's no hype about it, the real hype is reserved for today's semi-retired beltholders and their clown show.

Ali was a tremendously brave man and a great champion in his day but if we're honest and objective he isn't a great boxer in terms of ability by modern standards. No 60's athlete is elite today by any objective measurement. You only have to watch the Mildenberger fight to see he'd be completely out of his depth against Usyk for instance.

Lewis is also overrated but he'd be too big (6'5, 250 lbs) and athletic for "little" (6'3, 220 lbs) George Foreman and especially Frazier (5'11, 210 lbs), who he could KO in a couple of rounds as Foreman did.

[NEETzschean]

I've heard Tony Bellew say southpaws should be banned from boxing, and I think he was serious.

Tony "you'll never see me again Koogz" Bellew got destroyed by southpaw Stevenson and southpaw Usyk, so I understands why he feels that way.

[billeau2]

I think a lot of Usyk's chance comes in how Fury intends to fight him. Is he going to fight in his new Kronk style and come in heavy? Because I think he will do that for the Ngannou farce, and he won't have time to change much for Usyk. I think he's going to try to come forward and be a weight bully, and will be very heavy footed. We haven't seen him fight in the way you describe in years. It doesn't sound like Fury is taking it seriously either.

If Fury does such I would have a hard time picking him... Usyk is deceptively physical given a chance, and he is defensively good enough to make it tough for Fury to throw bombs... In the past Fury has been very good about selecting the proper skill sets... He was ready for a war with Wilder (for example) but if he thinks he can beat Usyk fighting heavy footed and not fighting off his back leg, he would be a fool.

[billeau2]

It's just a lot of waffle.

Count how many Olympic medallists are in the top 8:

https://www.heavyweightboxing.com/rankings

The only ones who aren't (Fury and Anderson) turned pro very early relatively speaking and were good youth amateurs themselves.

Mildenberger being "German LHW champion" as an amateur is objectively far inferior to Usyk's Olympic and World Championship gold. His 64 amateur fights is far inferior pedigree to Usyk's 350 + 6 WSB. His European title is far inferior to Usyk's undisputed world cruiser and unified heavy world titles. That's before we go into the fact that athletes in all sports have improved over the last 50-60 years and Usyk was studied Ali extensively. It's a mismatch.

I also question whether Liston and Foreman, small heavyweights by todays standards, were big punchers in modern terms. Further, the more mature, heavier Ali had a better chin than younger Ali (Ali was never dropped at 30+, whereas he was KO'd in the amateurs and dropped a few times earlier in his pro career).

I expect that Usyk would either beat Ali by wide/shutout UD or a late fatigue-based stoppage.

No... You have to count the amount of fighters with some GOOD measure of amatuer experience, use that as a benchmark and then compare that, through a ratio, fighters really successful/fighters average, not so successful. That would be a start. Then compare the number using a similar ratio of fighters who became professional with little amatuer experience...this would be the onlt way to determine this.

Then you make more assumptions about "improvements." Boxing is a hybrid activity involving sports and combat... Most sports do evolve, and usually this can be traced. For example, You can trace modern football to Florida, circa early 1980's when Arthur Jones created Nautilus machines and a radical departure from original training principles... Football players could now work out less, more intensly, practice the sport more per a practice... the players got bigger stronger, nutritional advantages, including steriods were improved and one can radically distinguish a lineman like Artie Donovan from a modern lineman and there is no comparison. NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds, and athletes have plenty of other activities including combat sports... Boxers have NOT improved, it is a myth. Some fighters are an exception to the rule. There always will be a range of skill in the sport, but one can watch and see the things fighters did versus what they do today.

Liston and Foreman were NOT small heavyweights! Look at their builds, their bone density... Usyk may weight more, but he has smaller bones, and his shoulders, wrists, neck are smaller. Liston and Foreman came in lighter for their fights because they had to. Look at later George Foreman! Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights? It was a preference and a necessity given the rounds, the activity level of the competition, etc.

So now Ali's chin changed? Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens. I don't know how Usyk would do against Ali. Ali had reflexes that would cancel out a lot of what Usyk does. Usyk is quick, but does not have exceptional speed... Jimmy Young IMO was a much stronger fighter, having speed, the polish that Usyk had, and the same ability to use accurate punches. He did beat a shopworn Ali... Imo.

[billeau2]

If you pick out the worst performances in anyone's career you can come up with negatives. I'm sure Jesus lost lots of arguments with his mother; that didn't make him a chump.

Forgetting Jesus for a minute... what about Usk's initial performance against Chisora? You make a good point.

[billeau2]

He got KO'd in the amateurs, was saved from a KO against 185 lbs Cooper by DQ-worthy corner work and was stopped late in his career by Holmes.

The point I was making isn't that Usyk would KO Ali (though I think he would stop him, or batter him to a wide UD), it's that Usyk has a better chin than Ali, hence Usyk hasn't been dropped with a headshot in 377 career fights, even against behemoths that did not exist in Ali's day.

Ali faced some of the hardest punchers... You have no proof that usyk got hit with harder shots.

[hhh1200]

He got KO'd in the amateurs, was saved from a KO against 185 lbs Cooper by DQ-worthy corner work and was stopped late in his career by Holmes.

The point I was making isn't that Usyk would KO Ali (though I think he would stop him, or batter him to a wide UD), it's that Usyk has a better chin than Ali, hence Usyk hasn't been dropped with a headshot in 377 career fights, even against behemoths that did not exist in Ali's day.

You must be talking about Sadam Ali. The guy has been stopped by 3 body shots and BS his way out of getting counted out. And it wasn't like he was fighting hall of famers or ATGs. In the real Ali era it was 15 rounds and you had to get off the canvas, none of that rolling around playing dead like a soccer player.

[BodyBagz]

Dodgy German scorecards, Compubox had it 132-124. Vitali couldn't put a dent in a blown up LHW southpaw over 9 rounds, then he quit and never sought a rematch. Vitali's resume was very poor given his reputation (weaker than Wilder's) and he couldn't even drop a weak chinned Lewis (sparked out with one shot by two fringe contenders), despite throwing the kitchen sink for 6 rounds.

Say what you want.
Only a select type of "fight" fan saw Byrd winning a rd.

[BodyBagz]

Because it was a terrible era, genius.

Usyk is a hall of famer, which inherently makes him better than any of the detritis that either Klitschko beat.

Name one of Klit's opponents that Usyk wouldn't beat?

Unrelated to this topic
That other GIF needs to make a comeback

[QueensburyRules]

We saw what happened when Wladimir faced Southpaw Corrie Sanders.

Yeah, Uysk beats him easily.

Vitali was a different beast. But again he never faced a southpaw like Usyk. No heavyweight has.

Usyk, win or lose, is a nightmare for any heavyweight. They have literally seen nothing like him.

- - Wlad fought and beat more southpaws in heavyweight title fight history and noone is close enough to be in 5th place much less 2nd.

Sanders was a far more dangerous opponent for the Ks than Usyk. Vit was better prepared than Wlad who was still suffering from poor ama training and promotional expertise.

The Ks were literally learning pro boxing from their debut. No history of pro boxing in Eastern Europe.

Time to study up or continue to drool...