I doubt Usyk would be 2 division champion in any other era

[Inspired]

Vlad has been undefeated champion for about 10 years before Fury beat him. Learn something casual.

Wlad was in that weak era that's why. He also cheated heavily against povetkin.

[NEETzschean]

You must be talking about Sadam Ali. The guy has been stopped by 3 body shots and BS his way out of getting counted out. And it wasn't like he was fighting hall of famers or ATGs. In the real Ali era it was 15 rounds and you had to get off the canvas, none of that rolling around playing dead like a soccer player.

I'm talking about the heavily hyped cultural symbol Ali who went life and death with Mildenberger, who barely ever threw a bodyshot in his life.

Usyk has never been stopped on a bodyshot in reality, let alone three times. Every time he's been dropped he's got up to win.

"ATG" says absolutely nothing about your ability between several eras.

In Sullivan's era there were no round limits. Meaningless. 12 rounds are fought at a higher pace than 15.

Rolling around on the floor = gamesmanship, playing to the referee. Usyk has a very high boxing IQ, hence he won again against a much bigger and more powerful man.

[NEETzschean]

Ali faced some of the hardest punchers... You have no proof that usyk got hit with harder shots.

I have no direct proof that Inoue doesn't hit harder than Wlad Klitschko either. But I know that bigger men punch harder than smaller men (a major reason why there are weight categories) and I know that modern PED-enhanced athletes punch harder than athletes from 50-60 years ago who lack those advantages. A big punching 6'1, 200 lbs heavyweight from 1940 won't punch as hard as a big punching 6'6, 280 lbs heavyweight from 2020.

[NEETzschean]

No... You have to count the amount of fighters with some GOOD measure of amatuer experience, use that as a benchmark and then compare that, through a ratio, fighters really successful/fighters average, not so successful. That would be a start. Then compare the number using a similar ratio of fighters who became professional with little amatuer experience...this would be the onlt way to determine this.

Then you make more assumptions about "improvements." Boxing is a hybrid activity involving sports and combat... Most sports do evolve, and usually this can be traced. For example, You can trace modern football to Florida, circa early 1980's when Arthur Jones created Nautilus machines and a radical departure from original training principles... Football players could now work out less, more intensly, practice the sport more per a practice... the players got bigger stronger, nutritional advantages, including steriods were improved and one can radically distinguish a lineman like Artie Donovan from a modern lineman and there is no comparison. NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds, and athletes have plenty of other activities including combat sports... Boxers have NOT improved, it is a myth. Some fighters are an exception to the rule. There always will be a range of skill in the sport, but one can watch and see the things fighters did versus what they do today.

Liston and Foreman were NOT small heavyweights! Look at their builds, their bone density... Usyk may weight more, but he has smaller bones, and his shoulders, wrists, neck are smaller. Liston and Foreman came in lighter for their fights because they had to. Look at later George Foreman! Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights? It was a preference and a necessity given the rounds, the activity level of the competition, etc.

So now Ali's chin changed? Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens. I don't know how Usyk would do against Ali. Ali had reflexes that would cancel out a lot of what Usyk does. Usyk is quick, but does not have exceptional speed... Jimmy Young IMO was a much stronger fighter, having speed, the polish that Usyk had, and the same ability to use accurate punches. He did beat a shopworn Ali... Imo.

"NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds"

All you have to do is look at the size of modern heavyweights to realise there has been a huge jump. Ali was massive in the 60's at 6'2.5, 210 lbs but today he'd be smaller than Usyk, who isn't even a career heavyweight. And the biggest elite athlete in boxing history Tyson Fury at 6'7.5, 256-273 lbs would make Ali look like a midget.

Modern boxers throw more punches despite being much bigger. Compare the Compubox stats from Ali-Mildenberger to Usyk-Hunter for instance. All of the heavyweight punch stat records are modern.

Ali was extremely crude and primitive technically compared to Usyk, Fury etc. He was a big athletic guy in the 60's who depended on his size and speed advantages. But offensively he was very limited (jab and right hand merchant, no body shots, limited front foot game) and defensively he was very easy to tag considering his physical advantages.

Ali fought far less rounds than guys like Sullivan and Johnson, who fought with no round limit. It's meaningless.

"Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights?"

Only if they put on a lot of fat plus PED bulk. Foreman was 228 even as a mature man against Young in the 70's. It has nothing to do with "the output of the opponent" as Foreman for instance knew that many fights weren't going long, so there was an advantage in being heavier (better able to take shots, push the opponent back and do more damage to take the opponent out faster). Hence he was 224 lbs in the Frazier rematch.

"Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens."

Fury and Ali are both good examples of chins improving in their 30's relative to their 20's. Foreman was the same, probably Wlad too. Physical maturity, extra weight and greater composure can improve your ability to take a shot. People take the older Ali and assume that the younger Ali was better in every respect but this is false, just as the older Fury and Foreman were better in some/many respects than their younger versions.

[BodyBagz]

Boxrec and Eyeonthering consensus is that Byrd won 3 rounds so you're wrong again.

Byrd slipped many of Vitali's relatively slow and sloppy punches, which caused Vitali to injure himself. Vitali couldn't hurt the blown-up light heavyweight southpaw at any point over 9 full rounds, then he quit. And Vitali never pursued a rematch, getting the more athletic, offensively skilled and less injury prone Wlad to take care of it instead. That's all there is to it.

Slippin and a movin...too busy to actually try and win

[billeau2]

I have no direct proof that Inoue doesn't hit harder than Wlad Klitschko either. But I know that bigger men punch harder than smaller men (a major reason why there are weight categories) and I know that modern PED-enhanced athletes punch harder than athletes from 50-60 years ago who lack those advantages. A big punching 6'1, 200 lbs heavyweight from 1940 won't punch as hard as a big punching 6'6, 280 lbs heavyweight from 2020.

it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder... As weight goes up the advantages of size go down... Plus there are many other measures to consider

[billeau2]

"NO SUCH jump happened in boxing. Boxers gass out earlier, have less technical chops, fight less rounds"

All you have to do is look at the size of modern heavyweights to realise there has been a huge jump. Ali was massive in the 60's at 6'2.5, 210 lbs but today he'd be smaller than Usyk, who isn't even a career heavyweight. And the biggest elite athlete in boxing history Tyson Fury at 6'7.5, 256-273 lbs would make Ali look like a midget.

Modern boxers throw more punches despite being much bigger. Compare the Compubox stats from Ali-Mildenberger to Usyk-Hunter for instance. All of the heavyweight punch stat records are modern.

Ali was extremely crude and primitive technically compared to Usyk, Fury etc. He was a big athletic guy in the 60's who depended on his size and speed advantages. But offensively he was very limited (jab and right hand merchant, no body shots, limited front foot game) and defensively he was very easy to tag considering his physical advantages.

Ali fought far less rounds than guys like Sullivan and Johnson, who fought with no round limit. It's meaningless.

"Do you really think either Liston, or Foreman could not have come in 250 plus for their fights?"

Only if they put on a lot of fat plus PED bulk. Foreman was 228 even as a mature man against Young in the 70's. It has nothing to do with "the output of the opponent" as Foreman for instance knew that many fights weren't going long, so there was an advantage in being heavier (better able to take shots, push the opponent back and do more damage to take the opponent out faster). Hence he was 224 lbs in the Frazier rematch.

"Ali was developing. Fury got dropped before, it happens."

Fury and Ali are both good examples of chins improving in their 30's relative to their 20's. Foreman was the same, probably Wlad too. Physical maturity, extra weight and greater composure can improve your ability to take a shot. People take the older Ali and assume that the younger Ali was better in every respect but this is false, just as the older Fury and Foreman were better in some/many respects than their younger versions.

I am not going to go round the mulberry bush to deal with another size queen sorry...

[juggernaut666]

Holyfield on a fight with Usyk ….

“It would have difficult “

When each individual fights their fight, they probably could win. What comes with the little guy [Usyk] – quick hands, good movement. What comes with the big guy [Joshua] – strong and big punches. So, it’s whoever fights their fight.”

If you don’t land no big shots, then the little guy is going to outpoint you – and plus, he’s got power.”

I remember seeing him say he’d favor Usyk because movers caused him more difficulty .

[NEETzschean]

I am not going to go round the mulberry bush to deal with another size queen sorry...

I make a reasoned argument and you bring penises into it. Of course.

There are weight categories for a reason and there's no rational reason why 200 lbs is where it ceases to be an advantage, just as there was no reason why 175 lbs was optimal prior to the creation of cruiserweight.

Another key difference is the southpaw stance. Holyfield was the only heavyweight prior to the Klitschkos who fought a few good ones and he went 1-3 against them. The old heavies didn't really fight any southpaws or any at all above Euro level, were clueless against them and thus couldn't be expected to beat good modern southpaws.

[NEETzschean]

it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder... As weight goes up the advantages of size go down... Plus there are many other measures to consider

"it is not as simple as bigger men punch harder"

As a general rule it holds true though. A 6'6, 250 lbs man hits considerably harder on average than a 6'2, 220 lbs man. Shavers for instance was generally stopping cruiser sized men and he had a lot of trouble stopping bigger heavies.

"As weight goes up the advantages of size go down"

True to an extent but look at the dominant heavies of the last 30 years: Bowe and Lewis won their series' with Holyfield, K2 dominated, then the three headed monster of Fury, Wilder and Joshua. The lone exception has been Usyk, who is the best southpaw heavyweight of all time and not a blown-up LHW like Moorer and Byrd or a former 190 pounder like Holyfield.