Mayweather vs Sugar Ray Leonard??

[RayLeonard82]

It's hard to judge Ray's career because it was so short and there were so many more styles and big fights. Lloyd Honeghan when he was hungry, Mike McCallum, Donald Curry, Aaron Pryor, Marvin Hagler (1982, 1983) Hearns rematch at 154 pounds which was Tommys peak. I thought in the 14th round of the 1st fight it was more Tommy drained than Ray's actual punches. Michael Nunn in 1988. Everyone wanted to see this. SRL had just knocked out Donny Lalonde and Nunn had just knocked out Kalambay. I remember during that fight Ray said Kalambay's style was similair to his and BOOM Nunn 1 punch KO. Thats why Ray changed his mind about Nunn. Instead of Terry Norris it should have been Julian Jackson who beat Norris.

You can make a argument that Ray is lucky he had that eye injury cause just maybe he would have been knocked out before Camacho.

[wpink1]

WPINK

Look i respect your opinon and this is a simple debate and discussion. Growing up i was a big SRL fan and enjoyed the flashy combinations as a kid but when i started boxing and grew older i went back and watched his fights, mainly the big fights and for some reason he was less impressive as when i was a kid. His big fights victories to me have to much controversy. Roy Jones and Floyd have been in big pay per view fights and when the fight was over there was no controversy. SRL is kinda like Oscar somewhat.

1. Duran 2nd Fight - He's not dominating like you think. When i was younger i was like woooow he did the bolo and hit with the left jab. But when i looked at entire rounds NOW im like all he's doing is running around the ring for 2 minutes and 58 seconds then throw 3 quick punches. That's not out boxing somebody. Outboxing is making a guy miss and counter. Just like there 2nd fight in 1989 which was SRL running around the ring and NO PUNCHING. If your gonna stick and move..PLEASE STICK as your moving. Overated Performance

2. Hearns - Tommy has a weak chin and was knocked out by Barkley and Hagler also. So because Barkley beat Hearns should he be a all time great based off that performance. He beat Tommy more impressive.

3 Hagler - Waited until he got old. Ray gets more credit if this was Hager of 1982,1983,1984,1985. This is why he fought Hagler after watching his performance against Mugabi. Ray said before the fight he was counting on Haglers lost speed and thought that would be the difference. Why not fight Hagler at his peak when his speed was at its peak? Ray got away with the layoff cause it was against a fighter who got old after that Mugabi fight. Ray would not have gotten away with that against a active young fighter.

One of the reasons SRL avoided young talented fighters after Hagler even during the Donny Lalonde, 2nd Hearns and Duran fights era was because Quincy Taylor knocked him out in sparring 1 week before the Hagler fight. To me Ray was the same in the Norris fight as the Hagler fight. The difference was it was a active, gifted young fighter with speed. The same results would happened in 1987 had Ray fought a young talented fighter after Hagler. He tried that same underhand combination against Norris in round 2 and got decked.

Ray this is about opinion, but certain things are plan ******, and completely with out looking at the facts.

First off it is obvious you did not box, or Watch Sugar Ray leoanrd, as you are completely false about his evalutions. You pick some bits and pieces and spread that over his entire career. Obviously those little flurries did something as 4 top all time pound per pound fighters lost to the guy that did those flurries, and he stopped 3 of them, 2 by ko who at the time had never been down or stopped before, but I am going to educate your dumb ass on here.

#1. Leonards big fights that you say were with controversy, and Roy's and Floyds were not. Hmmm I wonder aloud could it be, Leonard biggest fights where again vs all time top pound per pounders, and Floyd's were vs hmmm not so..What about at shot DLH and Castillo, did not these fights end in controversy. A split decision vs a shot 36 year old dlh who had been beaten and stopped previous to this recently lost almost all of his recent fights. How about the Castillo Figght. It is obvious you are plain a idiot. Now lets look at Ray's fights. The judges in the duran fight had him up (2 judges) 5-2 and 4-2-1...the 8th was easily going to him. So your 4-3...well we know what angle your coming from. Now Compare Duran to Castillo...Duran all time top 5 on most polls, peak, and at a solid weight as proven by titles at higher weights vs younger fighters.... Also Duran quit because he was frusterated, had nothing to do with Leonard. Also you may want to look at the counters that Ray landed off the ropes when duran rushed in rounds 2, 5,7....You may want to look at them, and again this is vs Duran, not JMM.

As for your statment about Hearns having a weak chin. Lets see how ****** your are. Hearns was dropped how many times at welter and jr middle outside of the leoanrd fight? Did he not fight Cuevas who is arguably on of the hardest hitting welters to ever lace em up. So Hearns at welter has glass chin because he what hmmm go stopped by SRL, who again is generally regarded as the 2-3 best welter ever, and a very hard hittin welter.

Hagler- So leonard is retired and away from the Game, and Hagler if active koing every challenger except for one (duran) he just came off beating the best 3 challengers of his career hearns Mugabi, and Hamsho, all by stoppage. Again another false statment you said. Leonard never said he waited to fight hagler, or that he waited until Hagler slowed...He said he saw the hagler fight, and mugabi was outfighting Hagler, and he knew Mugabi was not the boxer he was. He also saw the Duran fight in 83, where Duran forced hagler to lead and he and Dundee talked about fighting, then. He came back and did not look as impressive as he wanted vs Howard and re-retired. He also had another detached retina in his other eye... At the time Ray82 a detached retina was incurable if reinjured, ask Harry Greb, Sugar Ray Seales, and Aaron Pryor....They have blindness in one eye because of Detached retines..

Now again for hagler, who has Mayweather fought anywhere near a Hagler, who could hurt him, who was undefeated in theirlast 10 years, a all time top pound per pounder, undisputed champion...Who. You talk about ray winning a controversial decision, but your punk ass hero will not even fight Mosley, cotto, Williams, etc..fighters 1/2 of hagler... Oh by the way..Leoanrd return match was vs a legend after 5 years(1 fight) who was only 32 and he had to move up to, Mayweathers after 1 3/4 years was vs a featherweight, 36 years old who had only 2fights at lightweight...hmmmm. You really want to talk about the differnece in quality of opposition.

As for flurries....Ray stopped many many people that had never been stopped before and beat top fighters attheir peak..

Duran 72-1 lost only to dejesus and beat him twice in return. Duran had moved up 2 years prior to welter and established himself solidly and just beat a great welter named Carlos palimino..Duran afterthe leonard fight went on to win titles above welter... who has mayweather beaten that can say that except for corrales...

hearns...was 32-0 30 ko's never dropped, never backedup, considered a all time top welter, and a all time top pound per pound...Ray did not simply come frombehind vs tired welter..he made the top welter back up and change his plans due to ray showing he could hurt him (no one else at welter or jr middle ever did check your facts,,and only hagler and Barkly too tremndous fighters with tremendous power at middlewieght were able to stop him outside of Leonard)... You may want to revisit the hearns fight, those were not flurrries in the 6th and 7th rounds now where they.

He beat an unbeaten all time top fighter Benetiz in his first championship fight. Benetiz was a two division champion at the time, went on to went a 3rd at jr middle... Contrary to a false previous statment which shows you listen to rumors...Benetiz in his own words and his corner...Listen to the ABC telecast commentated by Cossell, had the best workout he ever did for this fight.

Stopped Danny gonzales who had never been down or stopped before with a counter right...dropped and stopped him the first...Stopped andy price in the first..Andy price a very good fighter...solid welter.
Adolfo viruet had never been down before dropped and beaten badly by leonard..
Davey boy green. layed out in the 4th round, for 10 minutes unconscious from a 3 punch combination by Ray...
Lalond... a feather weight, but the lightheavy champion of the world..KNOCKED OUT by ray...

Tell us outside of Hatton who was never good at welter, who was almost ko'd by Callazo, who was brutally droppped in the 1st by pac-man, then stopped in the 2nd... who else has Mayweather even scratched at Welter...

As for opinion..Your right. Since this is only opinion..Lets see

79% on here think ray would whip Floyds ass
Ray on most top pound per pound list, Floyd barely in top 50.
Ray beat 4 top pound per pounders at their peak or close to it..Floyd 0, best was Corrales. DlH was shot. You talk about leoanrd fighting Hagler, what about Mayweather vs DLH...Hmmmmm
We can go on and on. Fact is mostpeopel understand it is the quality of the opposition you face..and you still refuse to answer my questions..So I refuse to debate with you anymore until you do.

[wpink1]

It's hard to judge Ray's career because it was so short and there were so many more styles and big fights. Lloyd Honeghan when he was hungry, Mike McCallum, Donald Curry, Aaron Pryor, Marvin Hagler (1982, 1983) Hearns rematch at 154 pounds which was Tommys peak. I thought in the 14th round of the 1st fight it was more Tommy drained than Ray's actual punches. Michael Nunn in 1988. Everyone wanted to see this. SRL had just knocked out Donny Lalonde and Nunn had just knocked out Kalambay. I remember during that fight Ray said Kalambay's style was similair to his and BOOM Nunn 1 punch KO. Thats why Ray changed his mind about Nunn. Instead of Terry Norris it should have been Julian Jackson who beat Norris.

You can make a argument that Ray is lucky he had that eye injury cause just maybe he would have been knocked out before Camacho.

How many times did Ray go down before he had his detatched retina? Hmmmmmm

[Bushidō]

Mayweather has the better defense but I can see Leonard using his legs and throwing combinations and winning most of the rounds

[koboy]

Proven vs Unproven. Guess who wins?

If you don't know which one is which, you are either an MMA fan or a Floyd stan.

[S A M U R A I]

How do you lot see the fight going?

Same way as Floyd Sr. vs. Leonard, 1978 style.



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[S A M U R A I]

Ray this is about opinion, but certain things are plan ******, and completely with out looking at the facts.

First off it is obvious you did not box, or Watch Sugar Ray leoanrd, as you are completely false about his evalutions. You pick some bits and pieces and spread that over his entire career. Obviously those little flurries did something as 4 top all time pound per pound fighters lost to the guy that did those flurries, and he stopped 3 of them, 2 by ko who at the time had never been down or stopped before, but I am going to educate your dumb ass on here.

#1. Leonards big fights that you say were with controversy, and Roy's and Floyds were not. Hmmm I wonder aloud could it be, Leonard biggest fights where again vs all time top pound per pounders, and Floyd's were vs hmmm not so..What about at shot DLH and Castillo, did not these fights end in controversy. A split decision vs a shot 36 year old dlh who had been beaten and stopped previous to this recently lost almost all of his recent fights. How about the Castillo Figght. It is obvious you are plain a idiot. Now lets look at Ray's fights. The judges in the duran fight had him up (2 judges) 5-2 and 4-2-1...the 8th was easily going to him. So your 4-3...well we know what angle your coming from. Now Compare Duran to Castillo...Duran all time top 5 on most polls, peak, and at a solid weight as proven by titles at higher weights vs younger fighters.... Also Duran quit because he was frusterated, had nothing to do with Leonard. Also you may want to look at the counters that Ray landed off the ropes when duran rushed in rounds 2, 5,7....You may want to look at them, and again this is vs Duran, not JMM.

As for your statment about Hearns having a weak chin. Lets see how ****** your are. Hearns was dropped how many times at welter and jr middle outside of the leoanrd fight? Did he not fight Cuevas who is arguably on of the hardest hitting welters to ever lace em up. So Hearns at welter has glass chin because he what hmmm go stopped by SRL, who again is generally regarded as the 2-3 best welter ever, and a very hard hittin welter.

Hagler- So leonard is retired and away from the Game, and Hagler if active koing every challenger except for one (duran) he just came off beating the best 3 challengers of his career hearns Mugabi, and Hamsho, all by stoppage. Again another false statment you said. Leonard never said he waited to fight hagler, or that he waited until Hagler slowed...He said he saw the hagler fight, and mugabi was outfighting Hagler, and he knew Mugabi was not the boxer he was. He also saw the Duran fight in 83, where Duran forced hagler to lead and he and Dundee talked about fighting, then. He came back and did not look as impressive as he wanted vs Howard and re-retired. He also had another detached retina in his other eye... At the time Ray82 a detached retina was incurable if reinjured, ask Harry Greb, Sugar Ray Seales, and Aaron Pryor....They have blindness in one eye because of Detached retines..

Now again for hagler, who has Mayweather fought anywhere near a Hagler, who could hurt him, who was undefeated in theirlast 10 years, a all time top pound per pounder, undisputed champion...Who. You talk about ray winning a controversial decision, but your punk ass hero will not even fight Mosley, cotto, Williams, etc..fighters 1/2 of hagler... Oh by the way..Leoanrd return match was vs a legend after 5 years(1 fight) who was only 32 and he had to move up to, Mayweathers after 1 3/4 years was vs a featherweight, 36 years old who had only 2fights at lightweight...hmmmm. You really want to talk about the differnece in quality of opposition.

As for flurries....Ray stopped many many people that had never been stopped before and beat top fighters attheir peak..

Duran 72-1 lost only to dejesus and beat him twice in return. Duran had moved up 2 years prior to welter and established himself solidly and just beat a great welter named Carlos palimino..Duran afterthe leonard fight went on to win titles above welter... who has mayweather beaten that can say that except for corrales...

hearns...was 32-0 30 ko's never dropped, never backedup, considered a all time top welter, and a all time top pound per pound...Ray did not simply come frombehind vs tired welter..he made the top welter back up and change his plans due to ray showing he could hurt him (no one else at welter or jr middle ever did check your facts,,and only hagler and Barkly too tremndous fighters with tremendous power at middlewieght were able to stop him outside of Leonard)... You may want to revisit the hearns fight, those were not flurrries in the 6th and 7th rounds now where they.

He beat an unbeaten all time top fighter Benetiz in his first championship fight. Benetiz was a two division champion at the time, went on to went a 3rd at jr middle... Contrary to a false previous statment which shows you listen to rumors...Benetiz in his own words and his corner...Listen to the ABC telecast commentated by Cossell, had the best workout he ever did for this fight.

Stopped Danny gonzales who had never been down or stopped before with a counter right...dropped and stopped him the first...Stopped andy price in the first..Andy price a very good fighter...solid welter.
Adolfo viruet had never been down before dropped and beaten badly by leonard..
Davey boy green. layed out in the 4th round, for 10 minutes unconscious from a 3 punch combination by Ray...
Lalond... a feather weight, but the lightheavy champion of the world..KNOCKED OUT by ray...

Tell us outside of Hatton who was never good at welter, who was almost ko'd by Callazo, who was brutally droppped in the 1st by pac-man, then stopped in the 2nd... who else has Mayweather even scratched at Welter...

As for opinion..Your right. Since this is only opinion..Lets see

79% on here think ray would whip Floyds ass
Ray on most top pound per pound list, Floyd barely in top 50.
Ray beat 4 top pound per pounders at their peak or close to it..Floyd 0, best was Corrales. DlH was shot. You talk about leoanrd fighting Hagler, what about Mayweather vs DLH...Hmmmmm
We can go on and on. Fact is mostpeopel understand it is the quality of the opposition you face..and you still refuse to answer my questions..So I refuse to debate with you anymore until you do.

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[miron_lang]

Bigger Fighter beats Smaller fighter

[RayLeonard82]

Ray this is about opinion, but certain things are plan ******, and completely with out looking at the facts.

First off it is obvious you did not box, or Watch Sugar Ray leoanrd, as you are completely false about his evalutions. You pick some bits and pieces and spread that over his entire career. Obviously those little flurries did something as 4 top all time pound per pound fighters lost to the guy that did those flurries, and he stopped 3 of them, 2 by ko who at the time had never been down or stopped before, but I am going to educate your dumb ass on here.

#1. Leonards big fights that you say were with controversy, and Roy's and Floyds were not. Hmmm I wonder aloud could it be, Leonard biggest fights where again vs all time top pound per pounders, and Floyd's were vs hmmm not so..What about at shot DLH and Castillo, did not these fights end in controversy. A split decision vs a shot 36 year old dlh who had been beaten and stopped previous to this recently lost almost all of his recent fights. How about the Castillo Figght. It is obvious you are plain a idiot. Now lets look at Ray's fights. The judges in the duran fight had him up (2 judges) 5-2 and 4-2-1...the 8th was easily going to him. So your 4-3...well we know what angle your coming from. Now Compare Duran to Castillo...Duran all time top 5 on most polls, peak, and at a solid weight as proven by titles at higher weights vs younger fighters.... Also Duran quit because he was frusterated, had nothing to do with Leonard. Also you may want to look at the counters that Ray landed off the ropes when duran rushed in rounds 2, 5,7....You may want to look at them, and again this is vs Duran, not JMM.

As for your statment about Hearns having a weak chin. Lets see how ****** your are. Hearns was dropped how many times at welter and jr middle outside of the leoanrd fight? Did he not fight Cuevas who is arguably on of the hardest hitting welters to ever lace em up. So Hearns at welter has glass chin because he what hmmm go stopped by SRL, who again is generally regarded as the 2-3 best welter ever, and a very hard hittin welter.

Hagler- So leonard is retired and away from the Game, and Hagler if active koing every challenger except for one (duran) he just came off beating the best 3 challengers of his career hearns Mugabi, and Hamsho, all by stoppage. Again another false statment you said. Leonard never said he waited to fight hagler, or that he waited until Hagler slowed...He said he saw the hagler fight, and mugabi was outfighting Hagler, and he knew Mugabi was not the boxer he was. He also saw the Duran fight in 83, where Duran forced hagler to lead and he and Dundee talked about fighting, then. He came back and did not look as impressive as he wanted vs Howard and re-retired. He also had another detached retina in his other eye... At the time Ray82 a detached retina was incurable if reinjured, ask Harry Greb, Sugar Ray Seales, and Aaron Pryor....They have blindness in one eye because of Detached retines..

Now again for hagler, who has Mayweather fought anywhere near a Hagler, who could hurt him, who was undefeated in theirlast 10 years, a all time top pound per pounder, undisputed champion...Who. You talk about ray winning a controversial decision, but your punk ass hero will not even fight Mosley, cotto, Williams, etc..fighters 1/2 of hagler... Oh by the way..Leoanrd return match was vs a legend after 5 years(1 fight) who was only 32 and he had to move up to, Mayweathers after 1 3/4 years was vs a featherweight, 36 years old who had only 2fights at lightweight...hmmmm. You really want to talk about the differnece in quality of opposition.

As for flurries....Ray stopped many many people that had never been stopped before and beat top fighters attheir peak..

Duran 72-1 lost only to dejesus and beat him twice in return. Duran had moved up 2 years prior to welter and established himself solidly and just beat a great welter named Carlos palimino..Duran afterthe leonard fight went on to win titles above welter... who has mayweather beaten that can say that except for corrales...

hearns...was 32-0 30 ko's never dropped, never backedup, considered a all time top welter, and a all time top pound per pound...Ray did not simply come frombehind vs tired welter..he made the top welter back up and change his plans due to ray showing he could hurt him (no one else at welter or jr middle ever did check your facts,,and only hagler and Barkly too tremndous fighters with tremendous power at middlewieght were able to stop him outside of Leonard)... You may want to revisit the hearns fight, those were not flurrries in the 6th and 7th rounds now where they.

He beat an unbeaten all time top fighter Benetiz in his first championship fight. Benetiz was a two division champion at the time, went on to went a 3rd at jr middle... Contrary to a false previous statment which shows you listen to rumors...Benetiz in his own words and his corner...Listen to the ABC telecast commentated by Cossell, had the best workout he ever did for this fight.

Stopped Danny gonzales who had never been down or stopped before with a counter right...dropped and stopped him the first...Stopped andy price in the first..Andy price a very good fighter...solid welter.
Adolfo viruet had never been down before dropped and beaten badly by leonard..
Davey boy green. layed out in the 4th round, for 10 minutes unconscious from a 3 punch combination by Ray...
Lalond... a feather weight, but the lightheavy champion of the world..KNOCKED OUT by ray...

Tell us outside of Hatton who was never good at welter, who was almost ko'd by Callazo, who was brutally droppped in the 1st by pac-man, then stopped in the 2nd... who else has Mayweather even scratched at Welter...

As for opinion..Your right. Since this is only opinion..Lets see

79% on here think ray would whip Floyds ass
Ray on most top pound per pound list, Floyd barely in top 50.
Ray beat 4 top pound per pounders at their peak or close to it..Floyd 0, best was Corrales. DlH was shot. You talk about leoanrd fighting Hagler, what about Mayweather vs DLH...Hmmmmm
We can go on and on. Fact is mostpeopel understand it is the quality of the opposition you face..and you still refuse to answer my questions..So I refuse to debate with you anymore until you do.

Be realistic, in 1987 all Marvin Hagler was, was a name that looked great on the resume. John Mugabi was a Junior Middlweight not a strong middleweight with speed and Hagler struggled with him. Terry Norris knocked Mugabi out in the 1st round. Your excuse will probably be Mugabi was older in 1990 even though he was only like 29 years old. The difference was in 1985/1986 Muga bi didn't face anyone like Norris. He had average speed and built up a good record at 154 pounds. Had Ray taken on young talented fighters in 1987/1988 his layoff would have showed more. For example a Michael Nunn or a Mike McCallum.

Another point. SRL actually looked good in the 1989 fight against Duran. He trained for speed after getting bulked up in that 2nd Hearns fight June 12th 1989 and wanted to train more for speed for the 2nd Duran fight. He got his legs back and was able to stay on his toes pretty much the whole fight. It was kinda like the 2nd fight. Run around the ring and throw a occassional combination. So when he fought Terry Norris which was February 9th 1991, that was only 1 year and 2 months after the Duran fight. Not exactly a long layoff. He was the same February 9th 1991 as December 1989 when he outboxed Duran with the difference being he was fighting a young fighter with energy, speed, reflexes. The same results would have happened in 1987 had SRL taken on a young fighter. He was knocked out in sparring by Quincy Taylor and knew he couldn't handle young fighters with the layoff. Hagler's slippage in speed and reflexes was Ray's easy path to greatness because of the name on the resume and everyone would say Hagler had not lost in 12 years. Watch the fight again and look at how slow Hagler is and its not Ray's defense thats making him miss. He just looks so slow.

Your bring up Gonzales, Andy Price but fail to mention Kevin Howard, Ayub Kalule, Larry Bonds, Floyd Mayweather sr. Floyd jr could lay off 2 years and wouldnt have problems with Kevin Howard.

Ray vs Kevin Howard. Ray's speed looks the exact same as the Kalule fight and he was struggled with journeyman Kevin Howard who was no where close to Mayweather jr and not even as strong.



Ray vs Ayub Kalule. How is slow plodding Kalule hitting Ray this much? Kalule was already going downhill when he fought Marijan Benes a year before the Leonard fight. Watching this and reading you say Ray overwems Floyd jr and his corner stops the fight is laughable.

[RayLeonard82]

Wpink

Had they fought Ray most likely comes out in the aggressive style he fought Kalule and Benitez cause he would feel he was the stronger fighter. I doubt he comes out boxing on his toes. Looking at the Kalule fight and how often he Kalule was able to nail Ray with countershots coming forward i see the same thing in a fight with Floyd with the difference being its coming 10 times quicker with much more snap and much better defense and skills.

This particular style Ray used against Kalule and Benitez Floyd wins a easy UD. Ray is getting nailed coming in often against Kalule who was slow