Usyk is the true lineal, Fury is fraud

[Toffee]

Joshua vs klitschko doesn't count because klitschko loss lineal to fury in the fight before he fought joshua.


What's difficult about that bro?

Yeah we all knew that fight happened - that's not exactly obscure knowledge. That's not what's being discussed.

[Toffee]

You continue being niave.

Wladimir never beat the next best boxer in the division, ever. I rate him very highly. But he was never undisputed or lineal other than some simple marketing for simple minds.

Plenty accept that 1 v 3 is legitimate if the top two won't fight. The Klitschko's is probably the best example of two top fighters who wouldn't fight.

I'm not convinced that Chagaev was when Wlad became lineal, but through Chagaev, Povetkin, Vitali's retirement and Pulev (in that order) he removed enough doubt in my mind.

But that's lineal - that's why it was never really a current designation, it was more an historical discussion. It was Fury who used it as a current championship because he didn't have any actual title to market. Historically these issues have been sorted out but this current generation might be the one to buck that trend.

It's funny but those who defended Fury retaining lineal status through his time away from the sport seemed to soften on that stance once they could argue he won it back against Wilder.

In my mind, if you can be lineal champion while banned, retired and 'defending your title' against guys like Pianeta and Seferi, then why are we even discussing it? It's worthless.

[Flickergrab98]

Usyk by definition isn’t the lineal champion

[M312]

Plenty accept that 1 v 3 is legitimate if the top two won't fight. The Klitschko's is probably the best example of two top fighters who wouldn't fight.

I'm not convinced that Chagaev was when Wlad became lineal, but through Chagaev, Povetkin, Vitali's retirement and Pulev (in that order) he removed enough doubt in my mind.

But that's lineal - that's why it was never really a current designation, it was more an historical discussion. It was Fury who used it as a current championship because he didn't have any actual title to market. Historically these issues have been sorted out but this current generation might be the one to buck that trend.

It's funny but those who defended Fury retaining lineal status through his time away from the sport seemed to soften on that stance once they could argue he won it back against Wilder.

In my mind, if you can be lineal champion while banned, retired and 'defending your title' against guys like Pianeta and Seferi, then why are we even discussing it? It's worthless.

What you are describing is more like the undisputed number 1/Ring champion - if 2 and 3 are too close to separate, then The Ring have been known to award a belt...

...But that is not lineal.

This is the definition of a lineal champion:

The lineal championship of a weight class is a world championship title held initially by an undisputed champion and subsequently by a fighter who defeats the reigning champion in a match at that weight class.

Wladimir did not do this. He was NEVER undisputed and never beat the previous undisputed champion (or lineage of that as Lewis retired). That cannot be disputed. It is fact.

He didn't face his brother (or the following belt holders) so it is literally impossible for him to be lineal.

All that is totally ignoring the fact Vitali would've beaten his younger brother without much doubt.

I have no problem with him being awarded the Ring belt or being ranked number 1, but that's different.

[M312]

Of course it's all opinion. Just as yours is that Wilder was top 2 in April 2017. In my opinion there's no chance you could rate Wilder above Klitschko or Joshua - at that point Wilder had fought no-one. His decision against Stiverne was his only decent win and he was coming off a win over Gerald Washington.

It's not inconsistent to rank Klitschko but not Fury. It's entirely reasonable. One was in camp for 18 months, trying to fight his rematch, and booking a title fight. The other was retired, banned and 25 stone. I don't need sources to inform that view - I'm basing it on what we both know actually happened.

LIneal is opinion (until they all fight watch other and sort it). I'm not sure which reputable source I would need. TBRB made a poor decision to unrank Wlad who was clearly actively seeking a fight (their words, by the way. They said he was not actively seeking fights and unranked him a couple of weeks before the Joshua fight was announced, which demonstrates that they were incorrect). Ring? Well they're not reputable in this debate - Fury still had their belt until 2018!

Lineal is not an opinion.

Lineal is a way of following the lineage of the true championship (as if there was only 1 belt).

But that lineage is broken at heavy, so you need to have an undisputed champion for it to be reset.

The last one being Lewis who retired.

There is no opinion involved. You just follow a timeline from the Undisputed champion.

[Larry the boss]

I still believe Usyk is lineal.

Fury retired, the consensus 1-2 fought. Joshua became lineal by beating Klitschko.

Just because TBRB made the decision to unrank Klitschko (from being ranked 1) for being inactive doesn't change any of that. He was only inactive because of Fury's issues. They immediately ranked Joshua and Klitschko as the top two again after the fight.

It's a much better argument than claiming that Klitschko v Joshua doesn't count because Wlad was inactive... then somehow ranking Fury top two before the second Wilder fight when his best win in years was Wallin.

Klit was coming off of a loss man...you know to Fury

[Hustle]

Yeah we all knew that fight happened - that's not exactly obscure knowledge. That's not what's being discussed.

That should end the discussion

[MisterDeclanCor]

Fury went to America, fought box office fights, end of story.

[Toffee]

Klit was coming off of a loss man...you know to Fury

So what did you rank him? 6? 15?

What do your rules say about ranking a long reigning fighter who takes an L and is trying to rematch?

[Toffee]

Lineal is not an opinion.

Lineal is a way of following the lineage of the true championship (as if there was only 1 belt).

But that lineage is broken at heavy, so you need to have an undisputed champion for it to be reset.

The last one being Lewis who retired.

There is no opinion involved. You just follow a timeline from the Undisputed champion.

Once you get past the very first break it's all opinion.

For example, it's only your opinion that you need an Undisputed champion. The vast majority don't agree. Your lineage will be different to others on that basis. Doesn't mean that yours is correct (or incorrect for that matter).

In my opinion, bringing the orgs into this equation (as you have by requiring all belts) immediately calls your view into question.

There's no single point of authority.