Duran is not a top ten ATG

[JAB5239]

Harry Greb beat 12 Hall of Famers, most of them multiple times, in addition to a galaxy of top contenders and uncrowned champions. He weighed 160, and beat five men who fought Jack Dempsey for the heavyweight title. Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and numerous others all beat more top fighters than Leonard did. You can't hammer Duran on the one hand, yet at the same time rank Leonard above all these guys effectively on the basis of four wins, all of which were close and/or controversial.



Yes I did, intentionally so, to prove my point that anyone's record can be picked apart if you include and exclude the right information, just as you did with Duran.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Duran was 71-1 before he ever faced one of the Fab Four. At the half-way point in his career, he'd already had more fights than Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Hearns had in their entire careers. Make Hagler have 72 fights at middle and then move up to face a prime Mike Spinks or have Leonard and Benitez contest 72 fights at welter before moving to face a peak Hagler and see how they fare.

Yes, Duran's record above 135 is more patchy, but then so is Ray's above 147. PBF's record above 135 would be patchy too had he not managed to avoid most of his best peers. Two of the four wins you cite for Leonard being all-time top ten were against fellow welters, one a lightweight, and one a middleweight. One fight with Kalule, one fight with Hagler, and one fight with Lalonde reaped four titles, but didn't exactly demonstrate his greatness at higher weights.

Duran had beautiful skills, great balance and footwork, a very underrated defence, an excellent chin, KO power and went 72-1, which included being virtually unbeatable at 135 against some excellent comp, fighting 6-8 times a year, and winning the 147 title from one of the greatest welters ever. How many lightweights in history beat the Leonard that Duran beat in Montreal? How many lightweights go 15 with a prime Hagler? How many lightweights could beat Iran Barkley for the middleweight title? Yes 80+ fights into his career and 3-4 divisions above his best weight he started losing to the top guys, but he still periodically managed to produce great performances, and well into his 40s he was still competitive at a high level. There's a reason why he gets ranked in the top ten by virtually everyone.

This was an excellent post.

[Brandish]

I've heard about it.

I'm only pointing out how ridiculous it is to talk about 'double-standards' regarding Duran and then demand over 40 year old Duran to fight Roy Jones, James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, etc. even though neither Hearns, Hagler or Leonard came close to fighting them either and they were years younger.

aren't you the one demanding floyd fight welterweights and if he doesn't then you sit back and say he ducked so and so. duran had 16 fights at 160 no matter his age he was well suited for 160 by the time he beat barkley.

floyd did what he had to do at 147 he beat the recogniozed champ not a wbo title holder he actually beat the real deal, regardless of how you think abnout it. floyd had 4 fights at 147 and retired

duran gets a pass against the greats of 160 bcause he is a natural 135lber

why does floyd get held to a different standard since he is a natural 130lber

[JAB5239]

aren't you the one demanding floyd fight welterweights and if he doesn't then you sit back and say he ducked so and so. duran had 16 fights at 160 no matter his age he was well suited for 160 by the time he beat barkley.

floyd did what he had to do at 147 he beat the recogniozed champ not a wbo title holder beat the real deal, regardless of how you think abnout it. floyd had 4 fights at 147 and retirhe actually ed

duran gets a pass against the greats of 160 bcause he is a natural 135lber

why does floyd get held to a different standard since he is a natural 130lber

You calling Carlos Baldomir the "real deal" shows just how skewered your thinking is.

[Brandish]

You calling Carlos Baldomir the "real deal" shows just how skewered your thinking is.

that linaeage for the welterweight title is the real deal..you beat the champ you get the belt simple math.

when floyd retired was he the ring/lineal 147 champion or was it cotto, margarito, or williams

[wpink1]

You calling Carlos Baldomir the "real deal" shows just how skewered your thinking is.

Jab he was referring to the fact that WBC is considered the real title, that and wba, not wbo or some other alphabit title.

As for Duran we are never going to agree, nor could we come close because it is simple, you and others except machine here today refuse to debate on a even playing field meaning.

Judge duran by the same criteria as you do others. Do not try to make excuses for duran moving up, if you dont others. Do not try to say duran was past his prime at age 29 when you look at others accomplishments up until age 35. Don't say duran won alot of fights at 147 and 160 and ignore those he lost. Then please consider that otherd dominated weight divisions, hagler, monzon, louis, trinidad, chavez, hopkins, jones, lewis, klitscho or however you spell their names, calzaghe, all have dominated divisions, hmm holmes,... but we dont automatically rank them top 10 because of their dominace over a division.

I ask you to look at the FACTS.... for once. Not this aura of Duran because you like his style of fighting..

Duran at lightweight

pros

65-1 at lightweight
beat everyone that came his way
moved up and beat Ray leonard
won additional titles at 147 154 and 160

cons
VERY VERY VERY WEAK RESUME AT LIGHTWEIGHT
1-5 vs the best fighters of his era
all these loses before age 34
quit in a rematch with his biggest challenger
not a great title match record

Jones

pros
undefeated except for dq until age 35
beat 2 legends at their peak or when they where young not old
won titles at 160,168,175 and heavyweight

cons
several fighters he could have faced but didnt, promotional reasons where the biggest issues
style not fan friendly
several ko's after he destroyed his body by losing weight and muscle
To me Jones should be ranked better than duran. He didnt get beat while peak like duran did. he never quit. he did face hopkins and toney and EASILY BEAT THEM.. Duran did face better opponents but didnt beat them except once. He moved up and still won, and dominated the lightheavy division, beating all number one contenders.... Duran did not do this...

[Brandish]

To me Jones should be ranked better than duran. He didnt get beat while peak like duran did. he never quit. he did face hopkins and toney and EASILY BEAT THEM.. Duran did face better opponents but didnt beat them except once. He moved up and still won, and dominated the lightheavy division, beating all number one contenders.... Duran did not do this...

roy is definitely top 5 no lower than ten, yet he gets no credit for his actual accomplishments, he gets pissed on and for what valid reason...guy was undefeated for 16 yeara and had a combined 22 title defenses

great factual post as always.

[BennyST]

it's all good I am extremely biased towards aaron I want to place him top 10 all-time but I can't based on accomplsihments but he and tommy are definitely in my top 25. I could see duran top 20 in retrospect but def not top 5 as some of these other guys are running around saying.

You have Aaron Pryor as high or higher than Duran?











A guy with a bit over thirty fights, the majority of those being against guys of very low caliber according to you, after all, if you're going to say Duran never faced anyone of consequence then Pryor never faced anyone at all even remotely decent, and that includes his only two good opposition, being Cervantes who was about 100-10, and Arguello, who was about 85-4 or something.

Instead of coming back the way a great champion like Duran could, after his first loss by KO, he never did anything again. Hmmm, I like the way you think Brandish. Honestly man, you just don't have a damn clue as to what you're saying. You talk about knowing the records and basing things off that but you just don't have a clue about anyone these guys faced, how good they really were or their opposition. You don't know a damn thing, it's embarrassing mate. Just quit while you're ahead. Ignorance is bliss however.

[wpink1]

You have Aaron Pryor as high or higher than Duran?











A guy with a bit over thirty fights, the majority of those being against guys of very low caliber according to you, after all, if you're going to say Duran never faced anyone of consequence then Pryor never faced anyone at all even remotely decent, and that includes his only two good opposition, being Cervantes who was about 100-10, and Arguello, who was about 85-4 or something.

Instead of coming back the way a great champion like Duran could, after his first loss by KO, he never did anything again. Hmmm, I like the way you think Brandish. Honestly man, you just don't have a damn clue as to what you're saying. You talk about knowing the records and basing things off that but you just don't have a clue about anyone these guys faced, how good they really were or their opposition. You don't know a damn thing, it's embarrassing mate. Just quit while you're ahead. Ignorance is bliss however.

I have pryor no where near the top 30..

[BennyST]

and his no mas was a really, really, special loss as well

Exactly, it was an embarrassing, terrible loss which basically ruined his career up to a point, and will forever haunt him, and bring him down in the eyes of many fans. Unlike so many fighters, nearly every single fighter ever to be honest, he was one of the few that was able to come back from such a brutally humiliating loss and compete at the top level for the next two decades and win titles in every division he ever entered.

It is still the loss that people harp on about and it hurts him greatly, because if he had never given a rematch to Leonard and just had Leonard W15 oon his record he would very nearly be the greatest ever behind Ali, Robinson etc. That loss hurts him, but, unlike many of the guys you point out, after a loss more than half way into his career and after moving up in weight he was able to do what very few ever do and that is regain championship form and become champ again numerous times. Of course he wasn't able to compete with the greatest he fought at those higher weights, because they were not just your usual champs of the day, they were an era of the greatest fighters that have ever lived.

You keep saying that the guys you have above Duran did better. When they moved up in weight did they ever face someone of truly brilliant stature? No, none of them did. Jones fought Toney and Hopkins at his own natural weight. Mayweather never faced a truly great fighter at all, ever. Duran did and won, apart from when he got so far above his natural weight that facing the greatest ever fighters at those higher weights he could only do well against them and not win. No one has ever been able to keep going up and face the best fighters in higher divisions that have possibly ever fought there and win. He did it more than just about any other fighter.

You also said previously that what if Jones Jr had retired after beating Ruiz? Well guess what? He didn't and he got knocked out in back to back fights. What if Duran had retired after beating Leonard? He would probably be considered the greatest ever fighter that lived. Better than Robinson maybe. He didn't though, he went on and lost just as the guys you crap on about as being in the top five A.T. did. They all did the same thing, although the majority of them never again fought at the top level and kept winning titles, Duran did many times.

[BennyST]

Don't bother replying to what I write wPink, I can't see it. I already know exactly what you are going to write anyway so I don't need to see it after every post I put down.