Duran is not a top ten ATG

[The Noose]

Yes it is opinion. It all is opinion. Who ever knows. Forrest over Mosley, Douglas over tyson, etc. You never know until the fighters get in the ring.

However IMO based on what we have seen, Mayweather eats Duran's lunch at any weight. Duran had issues with Dejesus who is nowhere near a Mayweather. Duran simply could not compete with a SRL that boxed. He lost to Benetiz. So how can he be considered to beat a fighter that is better defensivly than Ray, Dejesus, or Benetiz, better counter puncher, just as fast, and his training is tougher than what 99.9% of fighter dream of. I really think Mayweather has been so good, that his mental and physical toughness simply has not been tested. Didn't we have the same questions about Leoanrd before the Duran fight. Only difference is Mayweather would not make the same mistake Leonard did. Also, Leonard size, power where not the factors that allowed him to beat Duran. He beat duran by using his boxing skills, movement, counter punching, angles, and turned the mental warfare back on duran. Mayweather would get way under Duran's skin.

Also, in the Castillo fight, wasn't Mayweather winning each round until his shoulder injury reemerged, and he didnt quit, he fought through it. It seems everyone forgets that point.

I was talking about the Castillo rematch, i didnt think Floyd was injured in that fight. I thought it was close, but Floyd took the last few rounds to win it. And judging by that i can see Duran giving him trouble.

As for Leonard making Duran quit, i think his skills and defence would frustrate Duran, but like i said, i think his very hard counters did alot of damage, plus the way he humiliated Duran by mocking him, somthing Floyd never does. He doesnt play around in the ring like Floyd and Hamed did.
But ur right, Floyd is better than Dejesus and Benitez. Although Duran did stop Dejesus twice and the Benitez fight was at a higher weight. (sounds like excuses doesnt it! lol). At LW or wen he first moved to WW, i think Duran on top form causes Floyd problems.

[JAB5239]

I have never seen pep or studied his career, what did he accompish that was significant in his career. you might want to research these fighters careers before dropping their names

You have never seen nor studied Peps career, yet I should do some research before dropping names? Seriously, could you be anymore of a hypocrit?

let's see duran was a dominant force at 135 at a championship level from 1972 (ken buchanan wba title) to 1980 when he defeated ray leonard. are you aware that duran never defended his unified 135 title. he beat dejesus and went directly to fighting bums at 147 I hardly call that dominanting. roy dominanted multiple weight classes for 15 years..floyd did it for 12.

Its funny how you will slam Durans resume, yet put Roy on a pedestal when his comp isn't that much better, And Floyd, who's resume and career don't even come close to Durans.

they just didn't do their reseach and like you are biased towards their favorite fighters.

Now these are just plain lies. Do you have anything to prove these allegations?

you keep talking about they, them most, what about you have you studied sam langford's career, if not why not. why parrot what somebody else has said and then try and pass that off as gospel truth.

I have studied Langfords career. I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I can speak with knowledge.

What proof do you bring to the table that proves what historians are saying isn't the truth?

red, green it foesn't matter. what matters is that you can't refute what I am saying because the facts are there.

duran's period of domiance 1972-1980
Roy's period of dominance 1988-2004
Floyd's period of dominance 1996-2007

you do the math

Your opinions, time lines, conclussions and what not have all been **** on in this thread. You present no facts, only assumptions and distortions of the truth. The only thing you have proven is that you know little of boxing history and boxrec is how you judge a fighters career.

This thread has been mildly entertaining, but I think its time to move on to greener pastuers.

[JAB5239]

when you come back with some serious numbers on any fighter then we can have a discussion. this every expert crap is phony. go do your research on these fighters and let us know how great they are. how many championships, title defenses, and how many hofers they beat. when you can comebackl with info like that then join the club. otherwise sit on the sidelines and talk about red and green k

This is your problem and why your opinion is thought so little of.......you go by the "numbers". Unfortunatly numbers don't tell the whole story. Neither does boxrec.

[JAB5239]

Floyd 5'9", 72" reach, Duran 5'7", 66" reach. Not a huge amount in it, so a direct comparison is possible, although Floyd's the bigger man.

Now at age 29, Duran is 72-1, 13-0 in title fights, with two world titles, 12 defences.

Floyd at age 29 is 39-0, 18-0 in title fights with 5 non-unified WBC belts, 12 defences.

Difficult to use championship fights as a guage, given the proliferation of them in the alphabet era. These days Duran's non-title fights against DeJesus, the Viruets, Mamby, Villa would all have been with the title on the line, so he'd likely have surpassed Floyd's tally. But Floyd needs all the help he can get in this match up, so I'll let it pass.

Floyd has his best days at 130, Duran at 135. I actually liked Floyd at 130, he fought some good competition, and beat them well, but for one reason or another never managed to unify the division or fight any of the other titlists. From that point on, they diverge, as Duran moves up through the weights and continues to fight the best into his 30s and well above his peak weight, and ends up diluting his title record to 15-6, but still picks up two more titles at 154 and 160, both against bigger, younger prime opponents who were favoured to beat him.

Floyd on the other hand takes the path of least resistance, cherry picking the weakest titlists whilst ignoring bigger, more dangerous and more lucrative challenges. Turns down a shot at the undisputed Judah in favour of facing Gatti, years removed from his prime and his peak weight. Turns down two mega offers to face Margarito. Calls out Winky and then runs and hides and when Winky accepts the challenge. Adds up to about a dozen or so titlists in his own divisions that he's managed not to face.

It's hard to match opponents directly best vs best, since Duran made it all the way to 160 to take on a prime top 5 middleweight, whereas Floyd daren't even take on the top welters. I'll give it a shot nonetheless:

Duran never fought for any titles at 130, but I'm willing to match Marcel, a guy who has been dismissed as a "bum" by those whose sources go no further than Boxrec, against any of Floyd's best at this weight. Floyd certainly never beat anyone who beat a prime Arguello.

DeJesus vs Sosa...Puh-lease.

Buchanan vs Castillo...More competitive than many of the others, as Floyd was still taking on the best at this point. Buchanan is a HOFer and arguably a top twenty 135lber, Castillo isn't, and is just as tough as Castillo, but more skilled. I think he'd tie Castillo in knots.

Benitez vs Gatti... Poor old Gatti

Leonard vs Baldomir... All-time top ten welt vs the 43rd greatest Argentine welt. Hmmmmm, as Pink is wont to say.

Hearns vs Hatton...cruel, just cruel.

Hagler vs De La Hoya...see De La Hoya-Hopkins or De La Hoya-Pacquiao

Barkley vs De La Hoya...see above

You see Floyd's figures look better, but it's easy to look good when you're cherry picking titles, ignoring the other titlists and turning down career-high paydays to fight the best in your division. Duran fought the best throughout his career, even when past his prime and past his peak weight, whereas Floyd hasn't. That's why Duran's a legend among all who understand boxing, whereas Floyd is merely a legend at the WBC and among fanboys.

Another great post, Kid.

[TheGreatA]

You all brandish may be a bit harsh on duran, as Duran is a great fighter, and a top fighter all time. However, he is speaking factually. In reading his post he is literally destroying you all with facts. I dont agree with hm ranking mayweather ahead of Duran, because factually Mayweather has at 147 and 154 not fought the level of competion that IMO allows for us to justify elevating him to top 5 status. Mayweather would have to beat a Pac-man at 140 (pac man is a great fighter and 140 would be a reasonable weight for us to compare the two), then Margo at 147. This would answer the questions that Mayweather has to answer to me.

However, Brandish is spitting facts and objectively he is killing it. We only disagree with Mayweather and his ranking. That is fine, no two people think 100% alike.

I wonder why outside of Bob analomy, and the machine why most of you duran fans can not simply put down the biases for on quality debate, put down pound per pound rankings that historians that many of whicn have never even seen alot of the fighters in which they rank highly, and never rank the new fighters high....even though the fighters today are physically stronger, bigger pound per pound too. Put down the biases and for one thread simply debate merits on a fact based level. Debate fighters off of the following:

Your subjective views...
The quality of their best wins
Their career record before say 34-35
The best oppostion win or loss
Title defenses and record
How successful where they as they moved up, if they did
How many fighters did they beat that went on to become champions after they fought
Defensive ability
Ko ability
head to head if there is this data
how many titles
How far they moved up.

I think if you find a way to put a scorecard to this, it could help. Not answer completley but it will try to fighters on a even playing field. You apply certain points to each category and each category would be weighted based on the overall importance to the weight division they are in (like you cant measure a heavyweight the same way you do a welterweight, they simplly have no need to do many of the things that welters do), their era, and overall ranking of a fighter. I also included a subjective portion as you can not measure everything, and this part should probably be wieght abit more than anythig else, simpl because ranking people is subjective. Use combine all of these scores and you get a overll number that you can turn into a ranking.

It would be fun. That way you can compare Roy to duran, or ali to leoanrd...etc..

The problem is that Brandish has very obviously never seen Duran fight except maybe two or three times past his prime and doesn't know much about him aside from what he has read from boxrec.com.

It's hard to take his opinion seriously.

For example, demanding a 40 year old Duran to defend his middleweight title that he won and vacated in 1989 against Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, all of whom would not be around until years after, shows his bias and lack of knowledge.

As for most of his arguments, boxing is not statistics. You cannot measure greatness on such things as record in title fights/title defenses because many boxers fight past their prime, fight mediocre opposition, fight more often than others, etc.

Brandish also said that he believes that people ranking Duran as an all time great is some kind of a conspiracy against black fighters such as Floyd Mayweather. The thread shouldn't continued on from there.

[Kid McCoy]

duran has nevr competed seriosuly at 130 if he had he would have won the title at 130. what does floyd's reach have to do with duran going 1-5 agsainst his peers. are you making another excuse for duran

and duran fought at 175 do you think floyd has the build to fight at 175. nice try but your grasping for anything to hold on to your myths..even resorting to blatant lying.

Duran started at 120 and worked his way through the weights. Both are of comparable size, only Duran is actually smaller and has a shorter reach. 130 is the weight he fought Marcel at, handing Marcel the only KO loss of his career. Within a year, Marcel had become the 126lb champion, a title he retired with.

There's only a 5lb difference between Duran and Floyd's peak weights. You're the one who wants to trash Duran for fights he lost to greats at 147 through 160, divisions Floyd has barely dipped his toe in, so it's only fair to judge eggs with eggs.

floyd fought for the same WBC belt that duran fought for. floyd has never fought for a wbo or ibo title. and once again duran had one unification fight at 135 he did not defend his unified title and he had to face dejesus in that unification fight do to dejesus defeating him the first time.

Buchanan was the WBC/WBA champion, but got into a dispute with the WBC, I believe over a sanctioning fee, but not sure on that, and was either stripped or vacated. But to all intents and purposes, he was the man, and Duran was defending the legitimate title. He then settled things once and for all by beating DeJesus to re-unify, something Floyd has never done.

The other difference is there were only two sanctioning bodies around in those days, the IBF not being formed until 1983. Now there's four, but Floyd doesn't fight the other title holders, hence Floyd never being anything more than a 25% champion.

floyd didn't need to unify any divison because every weight class he fought at he fought the top guy in each weight. did duran ever try to unify at 147, 154, or 160..I think not.

Gatti the top guy at 140, Baldomir the top guy at 147? Puh-lease.

so now floyd had breaks that duran didn't, floyd had longer arms then duran, any other excuse you want to add this. I mean how can you say duran was top 5 atg when he is so deficient and never got a break. I didn't know boxing was about getting breaks.

Then you know nothing.

that would be true but floyd and duran fought for the same sanctioning body..the WBC

Difference is, Duran wasn't the WBC company man, and actively chased the other title holders. Taking the Hearns fight in '83 saw him stripped of his WBA 154 title, for instance. He could have done a Floyd, held onto his strap, ignored the best in his division while calling himself the greatest ever, and given himself a shiny "championship fights" record for Boxrec whores to cream themselves over, but he didn't.

And per your request, their best wins:

130 - Marcel and Hernandez. Marcel not a HOFer yet - unfortunately suffers from not being a heavyweight and not being well known in America - but he will get in eventually. Suffered 4 career losses, two as a teenager, both of which he avenged by KO in rematches; one a controversial home town decision, and the other to Duran. Won the 126lb title a year after losing to Duran, making 5 defences, the last against some guy named Arguello, and retired with his title. Hernandez a fine fighter and a good win for Floyd, but a bit long in the tooth by the time Floyd faced him. Never beat anyone to compare to Arguello. I'd pit Marcel against any of Floyd's comp at 130. Advantage Duran.

135 - Buchanan & DeJesus and Castillo. Buchanan and DeJesus both HOFers and arguably top 20 lightweights (IBRO has them as just missing the cut, along with PBF), Castillo is not, and imo both would beat him, just as many thought Castillo beat Floyd the first time. Credit Floyd for actually chasing the best, and for having an immediate rematch after a controversial decision (something Leonard often failed to do), but Duran is tops here.

140 - Duran has no fights here, but considering Floyd's best win at 140 is lifting a paper title against poor old Gatti, years away from his best, Floyd doesn't have bragging rights either.

147 - Leonard & Palomino and Judah & Baldomir. Surely there's no need to even argue for Leonard being over those two. As for Palomino, he's also a HOFer and one fight removed from losing his title to Benitez on a SD. Duran does a number on him in one of his best performances. Judah a decent win for Floyd, but loses brownie points for turning down the fight when Judah was undisputed. As for Baldomir...

154 - Moore and De La Hoya - Duran enters the Moore fight considered washed up, and 3-1 underdog. Moore is younger, bigger and more powerful, with a long amateur career behind him, and Duran puts on a boxing clinic. Floyd split-decisions the 2007 version of De La Hoya in a snoozefest - his biggest win - but close enough for some to think that Oscar actually won. Duran again.

160 - A division Floyd has yet to enter, and let's face it, is unlikely to. Duran goes 15 competitive rounds with Hagler, a fight he'd have actually won had it been over 12. Five years later at age 37, he beats Iran Barkley, fresh off his brutal KO of Hearns, to become the only lightweight champion to win the middleweight title. Would Floyd go 15 with Hagler or beat Barkley? Would he even try? Hmmmmm....

As I noted earlier, Duran and Floyd were at similar points in their careers by age 29. The difference is that Duran had had twice as many fights and at 147 opted to chase the best in the higher weights into his 30s, which dilutes his record, while Floyd settles for ignoring the best and padding his record with paper titles and shopworn big name fighters. There is no way in hell that Floyd would move up to challenge a big prime middleweight champ the way Duran did with Hagler and Barkley. There is no way in hell that Duran turns down $7m to face Margarito or a call-out from Winky or a shot at the undisputed welter champ the way Floyd did.

Basically, Duran's best wins are against guys several grades above Floyd's best wins, and the 1-5 record you **** on about is against bigger and younger guys Floyd would likely never dare to face, much less actually beat.

Another great post, Kid.

Many thanks.

[The Noose]

I wonder why outside of Bob analomy, and the machine why most of you duran fans can not simply put down the biases for on quality debate,

Its 'Anomaly', not '****-omy', which sounds like im an arse doctor.

[Miburo]

He is mythologized for his run at LW (73-1). What came after the first Leonard fight is largely just an addendum to his career.

[Vasyl’s dad]

Duran started at 120 and worked his way through the weights. Both are of comparable size, only Duran is actually smaller and has a shorter reach. 130 is the weight he fought Marcel at, handing Marcel the only KO loss of his career. Within a year, Marcel had become the 126lb champion, a title he retired with.

There's only a 5lb difference between Duran and Floyd's peak weights. You're the one who wants to trash Duran for fights he lost to greats at 147 through 160, divisions Floyd has barely dipped his toe in, so it's only fair to judge eggs with eggs.



Buchanan was the WBC/WBA champion, but got into a dispute with the WBC, I believe over a sanctioning fee, but not sure on that, and was either stripped or vacated. But to all intents and purposes, he was the man, and Duran was defending the legitimate title. He then settled things once and for all by beating DeJesus to re-unify, something Floyd has never done.

The other difference is there were only two sanctioning bodies around in those days, the IBF not being formed until 1983. Now there's four, but Floyd doesn't fight the other title holders, hence Floyd never being anything more than a 25% champion.



Gatti the top guy at 140, Baldomir the top guy at 147? Puh-lease.



Then you know nothing.



Difference is, Duran wasn't the WBC company man, and actively chased the other title holders. Taking the Hearns fight in '83 saw him stripped of his WBA 154 title, for instance. He could have done a Floyd, held onto his strap, ignored the best in his division while calling himself the greatest ever, and given himself a shiny "championship fights" record for Boxrec whores to cream themselves over, but he didn't.

And per your request, their best wins:

130 - Marcel and Hernandez. Marcel not a HOFer yet - unfortunately suffers from not being a heavyweight and not being well known in America - but he will get in eventually. Suffered 4 career losses, two as a teenager, both of which he avenged by KO in rematches; one a controversial home town decision, and the other to Duran. Won the 126lb title a year after losing to Duran, making 5 defences, the last against some guy named Arguello, and retired with his title. Hernandez a fine fighter and a good win for Floyd, but a bit long in the tooth by the time Floyd faced him. Never beat anyone to compare to Arguello. I'd pit Marcel against any of Floyd's comp at 130. Advantage Duran.

135 - Buchanan & DeJesus and Castillo. Buchanan and DeJesus both HOFers and arguably top 20 lightweights (IBRO has them as just missing the cut, along with PBF), Castillo is not, and imo both would beat him, just as many thought Castillo beat Floyd the first time. Credit Floyd for actually chasing the best, and for having an immediate rematch after a controversial decision (something Leonard often failed to do), but Duran is tops here.

140 - Duran has no fights here, but considering Floyd's best win at 140 is lifting a paper title against poor old Gatti, years away from his best, Floyd doesn't have bragging rights either.

147 - Leonard & Palomino and Judah & Baldomir. Surely there's no need to even argue for Leonard being over those two. As for Palomino, he's also a HOFer and one fight removed from losing his title to Benitez on a SD. Duran does a number on him in one of his best performances. Judah a decent win for Floyd, but loses brownie points for turning down the fight when Judah was undisputed. As for Baldomir...

154 - Moore and De La Hoya - Duran enters the Moore fight considered washed up, and 3-1 underdog. Moore is younger, bigger and more powerful, with a long amateur career behind him, and Duran puts on a boxing clinic. Floyd split-decisions the 2007 version of De La Hoya in a snoozefest - his biggest win - but close enough for some to think that Oscar actually won. Duran again.

160 - A division Floyd has yet to enter, and let's face it, is unlikely to. Duran goes 15 competitive rounds with Hagler, a fight he'd have actually won had it been over 12. Five years later at age 37, he beats Iran Barkley, fresh off his brutal KO of Hearns, to become the only lightweight champion to win the middleweight title. Would Floyd go 15 with Hagler or beat Barkley? Would he even try? Hmmmmm....

As I noted earlier, Duran and Floyd were at similar points in their careers by age 29. The difference is that Duran had had twice as many fights and at 147 opted to chase the best in the higher weights into his 30s, which dilutes his record, while Floyd settles for ignoring the best and padding his record with paper titles and shopworn big name fighters. There is no way in hell that Floyd would move up to challenge a big prime middleweight champ the way Duran did with Hagler and Barkley. There is no way in hell that Duran turns down $7m to face Margarito or a call-out from Winky or a shot at the undisputed welter champ the way Floyd did.

Basically, Duran's best wins are against guys several grades above Floyd's best wins, and the 1-5 record you **** on about is against bigger and younger guys Floyd would likely never dare to face, much less actually beat.



Many thanks.

and that my friends is what makes the difference between a legendary fighter, and someone with great skills.


Imagine the Giants being able to pick their opponent for the Superbowl last year, what would people say if they picked the Raiders?

[wpink1]

He is mythologized for his run at LW (73-1). What came after the first Leonard fight is largely just an addendum to his career.

This post right here sums up the ******ity that Duran fans think with....Ohh and how many people on here have been saying you cant just look at numbers...

So we should stop looking at durans career after the 1st leonard fight because what.

He got embarrassed in the rematch and had to quit
because he then started getting as whippings whenever he faced top fighters.
oh because he reach to ripe old age of..hmmmmm 29...

Puh-lease.......

I guess we should stop looking at floyd career after he moved up and became 29 too, or Jones, or everyone else who moved up, and became 29.