Duran is not a top ten ATG

[daggum]

yeah kelly pavlik tried and he ran into a real legend

calzaghe tried as well but failed miserably. apart from the 2 judges who are being investigated no one believes calzaghe won.

[Brandish]

calzaghe tried as well but failed miserably. apart from the 2 judges who are being investigated no one believes calzaghe won.

calzaghe emplyed his infamous invisible monkey paw technique he can hit you without really hitting you

[JAB5239]

I'd like to see you try

I'd like to see you post something of substance instead of parroting your sorry opinion that not only do most here disagree with, but almost every boxing historian who has seen Duran fight. That would probably be asking for a miracle though since your opinion isn't to highly thought of considering you're in the red after seven hundred and some odd posts. But hey, it is what it is.

[wpink1]

Most boxing historians go with a flawed ** very flawed method of analysis. Many pick fighters to be in the top 10 that they have never seen before. How many of them saw Greb, or langford.

How many fighters would Greb be able to beat today, with fighters being bigger, faster, smarter, more equipped nutrionally suppliments, better training, more video tape footage allowing for fighters to use technical and strategic process's to beat their foes. Little things like how Holyfield dipped when ever Tyson went to throw his left hook, or how Hopkins took away Trinidad left, these things are picked up off of technology that exist today before did not exist, or to the extreme it does today.

Historians, really think that the style the tunney and dempsy employed would be successful vs the fighters of the 80's-90's and now. Vs the Size of today's heavyweghts.

People things are different. Just like we had this arguement about basketball. How, back in Bob cousy's day he was the best point guard, but today he would have a hard time making many elite high school teams. In fact he would not. Wilt would be a grea player but do you think he would hit 100 points ever in todays game. Did he no play in a era when the avg size was from 6'1 at pt guard to 6'7 at center.

You have to factor that in to Duran. His dominance in the 70's came along before the styles of sugar ray leoanrd,, whitacker, taylor, mayweather, jones..etc hit the ranks. Liston found this out when he was destroying everyone, but when he faced a mobile speedster in Ali he got destroyed. Now, Duran when he faced leonard the first time even said himself "he would didn think he could beat leonard if Padilla did not allow him to fight on the inside"....Read it in his autobiography. Duran forced leoanrd mentally to fight his fight, not physically. Duran never cut off the ring, NOT ONCE IN THAT FIGHT. Duran won. Now fast forward to when duran had to fight a fighter that used angles, speed, combinations,,,not just stand straight ahead and provide a stationary target. Guess what it was not even close. Duran could not hit Leoanrd, got hit whenever ray wantd to hit him, he became frusterated and quit. Even though he knew Ray was going to box him this time. He could do nothing.

Duran, Chavez, Liston, etc...hell IMO Marciano, Louis, etc all of these straight ahead destroyers fought in a different era where they did not have to deal with anything like a Leonard..

Not putting Duran down. However, lets be honest here. If you all can understand that basketball has evolved and the players are bigger and better faster,,etc... then why can boxing. If we in the early 70's would have asked who would have been the best bbll players of all time we would have said Wilt, jerry west, bill russell, oscar robinson..and i dont know earl monroe maybe. However in Basketball, most are smart enought to realize that time have changed, players are better now, and magic is better than oscar, Jordan better than west, kareem and wilt close , at four bill russell is a honaray pick but he would not be able to deal with the power forwards of today....Larry bird at the 3.

Why on earth do boxing fans refuse to accept the truth. Fighters of today are simply better than before. The era is not, as you had more fighters with relative greatness, skills, competitiveness at the same time aroudn the same weights classes...hagler, hearns, leoanrd, duran, benetiz. However that does not mean they where the BEST. They were simply the best in their era.

You have seen what happenes when the straight ahead style of the previous era fares when they face a great boxer who uses a lot of the new styles that fighters are using now. Liston got his ass handed to him. Chavez got his ass handed to him repeatedly by whitacker, randall and Taylor. Yes he got a draw with Whitacker but everyone knows he lost, and Taylor that was the robbery of the century. Taylor won that fight. Duran when he faced leoanrd.

For Duran it was nto about size our power, it was about speed and angles, movment, etc. Duran couldd not hit leonard, What do you think he would do with a mayweather, who it much harder to hit, and a better counter puncher. Mayweather as much as I hate him is almost every bit as good pound per pound as SRL. He simply is. He is the next generation of Leonard. Roy jones is too. These fighters grew up seeing the speed and movement of Leonard and took it to the next level, and tried to minimize leonard's weaknesses, that is taking puches, sometime throwign wild looping rights.. Mayweather is sharper more accurate. While he does nto have the combination speed of leoanrd, only Taylor does with speed and power, Norris does with a 3 punch combination but it was always the same 3 punch combo, Camacho was super fast, but hit like lionel richie, Roy was faster than them all, but very seldom through in multi punch combo's but in all honesty when he did it was amazing....

Duran is not on that level. He simply is not. He was one of the best at what he did, straight ahead pressure in your face mano vs mano. Duran no doubt would beat them all pound per pound. However agian Duran and hagler fans, Leoanrd proved boxing is not mano vs mano all the time. Duran would never beat Leonard, jones, or Mayweather if the boxed him, while none of them would beat Duran toe to toe pound per pound (leonard came close but he was welter too, at lightwieght duran beats leoanrd poudn per pound worse in a toe to toe confrotation.)

I know it is kind of long but it seems to me that Boxing fans need to stop thinking their fighter beats the world. There is always a style a person the will beat a fighter. Yes I love SRL, but a tommy at 154 IMO beats Leoanrd. Duran in a toe to toe confrotation beats Ray at 135. The reason why Robinson is regarded as the best as he was a throwback toe to toe warriro, with todays speed, tremendous power in both hands, world best jaw, and competitor like none other ( he was once told because of a cut or something that the ref was going to stop the fight after one more round, and he went out and destroyed that fighter...he was at one point 121-1-1).

The top pound per pound fighters of all time needs to realize that many of these fighters of yesteryear would not beat these fighters of today. Roy Jones beats pretty much any middleweight in history when he was peak, yet and still bert suger has him ranked between 90-100....PLease....

[Brandish]

I'd like to see you post something of substance instead of parroting your sorry opinion that not only do most here disagree with, but almost every boxing historian who has seen Duran fight. That would probably be asking for a miracle though since your opinion isn't to highly thought of considering you're in the red after seven hundred and some odd posts. But hey, it is what it is.

so this post means you're not going to try and prove me wrong about roy's resume.

[Brandish]

For Duran it was nto about size our power, it was about speed and angles, movment, etc. Duran couldd not hit leonard, What do you think he would do with a mayweather, who it much harder to hit, and a better counter puncher. Mayweather as much as I hate him is almost every bit as good pound per pound as SRL. He simply is. He is the next generation of Leonard. Roy jones is too. These fighters grew up seeing the speed and movement of Leonard and took it to the next level, and tried to minimize leonard's weaknesses, that is taking puches, sometime throwign wild looping rights.. Mayweather is sharper more accurate. While he does nto have the combination speed of leoanrd, only Taylor does with speed and power, Norris does with a 3 punch combination but it was always the same 3 punch combo, Camacho was super fast, but hit like lionel richie, Roy was faster than them all, but very seldom through in multi punch combo's but in all honesty when he did it was amazing....

Duran is not on that level. He simply is not. He was one of the best at what he did, straight ahead pressure in your face mano vs mano. Duran no doubt would beat them all pound per pound. However agian Duran and hagler fans, Leoanrd proved boxing is not mano vs mano all the time. Duran would never beat Leonard, jones, or Mayweather if the boxed him, while none of them would beat Duran toe to toe pound per pound (leonard came close but he was welter too, at lightwieght duran beats leoanrd poudn per pound worse in a toe to toe confrotation.)

I know it is kind of long but it seems to me that Boxing fans need to stop thinking their fighter beats the world. There is always a style a person the will beat a fighter. Yes I love SRL, but a tommy at 154 IMO beats Leoanrd. Duran in a toe to toe confrotation beats Ray at 135. The reason why Robinson is regarded as the best as he was a throwback toe to toe warriro, with todays speed, tremendous power in both hands, world best jaw, and competitor like none other ( he was once told because of a cut or something that the ref was going to stop the fight after one more round, and he went out and destroyed that fighter...he was at one point 121-1-1).

The top pound per pound fighters of all time needs to realize that many of these fighters of yesteryear would not beat these fighters of today. Roy Jones beats pretty much any middleweight in history when he was peak, yet and still bert suger has him ranked between 90-100....PLease....

great post wink as always... many times we get caught up in our fav fighters style and don't look objectively at history. I think duran suffers from this and as the years go by many will begin to appreciate the greatness of what roy really did and what floyd did as well in pushing the envelope of boxing achievement.

[The Noose]

You just answered your own question. In duran 2 it was leonards mobility, defense which he initiated by being mobile and jab and spinning off the ropes, he threw hooks and uppercuts when Duran rushed in this time, in stead of trhrowing looping right hands which duran easily ducked in the 1st fight.

It was not Leonards offense but his ability to use his boxing style this time to use angles and when duran punched, he would pivot to the side and catch him from a angle in which duran would be off balance and unable to return fire, several times this happend while duran was rushing in to land punches on Leoanrd while he was on the ropes and Duran ended up being tangled in the ropes. From leonards movement and defense started his offense in this fight, and that is how Mayweather always fights.

I dont think ive seen Floyd hit opponents as hard as Leonard was hitting Duran as he rushed in during their rematch. Im not convinced Floyd could punch like that, as i think Leonard really through caution to the wind and knew he had to hammer Duran as he came in. Floyd is much more cautous.


But i have been ALMOST converted by u and Brandish's posts that Floyd could whoop Duran. Somthing i didnt believe before. Props to u.

Also u are right about his status as a ATG top p4p. I think many people just love his fighting style so they rank him higher. I never thought Jones or Floyd could be ranked higher, but ur arguement is convincing.

Good k.

[wpink1]

I dont think ive seen Floyd hit opponents as hard as Leonard was hitting Duran as he rushed in during their rematch. Im not convinced Floyd could punch like that, as i think Leonard really through caution to the wind and knew he had to hammer Duran as he came in. Floyd is much more cautous.


But i have been ALMOST converted by u and Brandish's posts that Floyd could whoop Duran. Somthing i didnt believe before. Props to u.

Also u are right about his status as a ATG top p4p. I think many people just love his fighting style so they rank him higher. I never thought Jones or Floyd could be ranked higher, but ur arguement is convincing.

Good k.

Two of my favorites SRL and Dr J... I would always argue this and that...then I heard SRL talk one day about Mayweather Mosley, then on another show about Roy. Then I sit back and listen to Bert Sugar and listen to how he and others are caught up in yesteryear, "back in this day, this fighter did thsi and did that....etc." You think to yourself but who was it against, and did these fighters fight every other week, no specific training (many times) for a fighter.

Now I am not arguing who is tougher, as I think there really is no comparison about toughness, jake lamatto's, marciano's, Wepners..This era's fighters are not that tough. But again we are talking abouit a boxing match, if it was toughness that mattered, the Gotti would be pound per pound the best today....

When a person looks at who is top all time, it frusterates me how many 30 yrs olds pick greb, langsford just to fit in with the older historians...and the younger fans have never even seen these fighters. and the older historians refuse to let go of their favorites.. Thus we dont see a true representation of pound per pound all time greats. Again Roy Jones at his peak before he lost was being considered up there with Ray robinson by many, and deservingly so. The only knock on him was that he didnt fight every fighter out there. This is a good knock, also he did not have 4 legends to beat. However, he did beat 2 greats..VERY VERY EASILY. Won titles, beat everyone from 160- heavyweight (only one person and not near the best heavyweight out there) that he faced. That night he stepped in the ring, he was being outweihted by almost 30 pounds and he did not run, he exchanged, and actually hurt ruiz......

I am not on here saying Duran is not a all time top fighter he is. He may be in the top 10 that I HAVE EVER SEEN. However this is limited and is not all inclusive, thus I can not say duran is top 10 all time. IMO. I also use to say DR. J was the greatest small forward that ever played, until i stepped back and looked at Bird, and all the new players that have taken what he did, and got better. I looked at his styles and saw his weakness ( out side shooting, and dribbling,) develope a total package rating, and compred it to Bird, lebron etc.. Dr. J comes up short, even though I grew up loving him.

Sugar Ray Leonard......My favorite athele along with Michael jordan. I think he is a all time top fighter, because he showed ability to fight different styles and win, againt the best fighters of his era and fighters who are regarded at great in any era. He beat all of the fab 5 during their peak years or close to it, the only one of the them that can say that. He weakness in ranking him is that he career was short, thus he is not up there with ali, or Robinson, and Duran does hold this aspect on him. However quality which is more of a factor than simply having 70 wins in a resume not filled (at lightweight) with the best great names...I simply can not see how Duran fans ignore simple facts. Sugar Ray would not be a middleweight champion when Jones was champion as Ray gets hit to often, would be the slower man in the ring that day, the smaller man, and Jones provides a awkward opponent that thrives on destroying a fighter that uses the blueprint jab the follow up off the jab, with his split secound counters that come from all angles....He would IMO put a beating on Leonard at Middleweight that ray would never forget.. I am mature enought to admit that. Can duran fans admit that there are fighters out there simply THAT have the style to beat him and are better than him....

My top five in no particular order

Robinson
Ali
Leonard,
Jones
Armstrong

[wpink1]

I dont think ive seen Floyd hit opponents as hard as Leonard was hitting Duran as he rushed in during their rematch. Im not convinced Floyd could punch like that, as i think Leonard really through caution to the wind and knew he had to hammer Duran as he came in. Floyd is much more cautous.


But i have been ALMOST converted by u and Brandish's posts that Floyd could whoop Duran. Somthing i didnt believe before. Props to u.

Also u are right about his status as a ATG top p4p. I think many people just love his fighting style so they rank him higher. I never thought Jones or Floyd could be ranked higher, but ur arguement is convincing.

Good k.

Bob,,, If you want to see the power of Mayweater just look at his fight vs Corrales, and Gotti. Keep in mind Mayweather was a natural 130 pounder so his fight with Corrales was vs fighters at natural weights , but he moved up 10 pounds and put a brutal beating so severe on gotti that the man who is known for his toughness had to have the towel thrown in to save him....

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE]

Most boxing historians go with a flawed ** very flawed method of analysis. Many pick fighters to be in the top 10 that they have never seen before. How many of them saw Greb, or langford.

Flawed method of analysis? Most historians have watched more film and have study more fighters and their opponents in depth than 99% of the people on this board including you and I. Im curious what brings you to this conclussion and what makes you think you know better than not just one of them, but nearly all of them?