Mayweather & Hatton: Adversity Means Very Little

[Addison]

mayweather only lost 3 of the first 4 rounds to judah
and he was letting judah get off on his punches it was a part of the plan
although judah's hand speed did give a few problems
but u saw how he adjusted in the mid rounds
tattooed is gettin the **** beat outta you for 12 rounds
floyd only caught hot ones in a round or so

you call that bull**** hugging and hold from hopkins the best defense?
you honestly think hopkins has the best defense??
last time i checked hopkins has been knocked down a few times more than floyd
i only caught the knockdown against judah a knockdown for floyd and he didnt even fall on his ass
hopkins has been knocked on his ass
yeah i dont call hugging and headbutting good defense
thats just lame
and for the record i am a big hopkins fan
but to say he has better d the floyd...
yeah right

Part of what plan?

Let's say we're both right about Judah - and tattooed is tattooed for as long as I said it was. It does not have to be for 12 rounds. What for???

At the time that Hopkins was getting knocked down Roy Jones was P4P #1 in the sport, Bill Clinton was President, and I had taken 4,674 less ****s than I have to date.

When I say Hopkins is the best that is right now.

That bull**** hugging is a defensive tactic known as "clinching."

It's been an integral aspect of Boxing for the last 5 minutes or so..

Seems to work here and there.

[C.Y.]

Part of what plan?

Let's say we're both right about Judah - and tattooed is tattooed for as long as I said it was. It does not have to be for 12 rounds. What for???

At the time that Hopkins was getting knocked down Roy Jones was P4P #1 in the sport, Bill Clinton was President, and I had taken 4,674 less ****s than I have to date.

When I say Hopkins is the best that is right now.

That bull**** hugging is a defensive tactic known as "clinching."

It's been an integral aspect of Boxing for the last 5 minutes or so..

Seems to work here and there.

all right man no beef
but do you honestly consider clinching for the whole round good defense??
his last fight against wright was a hugfest

[Addison]

all right man no beef
but do you honestly consider clinching for the whole round good defense??
his last fight against wright was a hugfest

How else are you going to beat the great Winky Wright?

Maybe I'm being more sympathetic because I stated before the fight that Hopkins would get the win and make it the ugliest win in history if that's what it took.. I don't think he achieved that distinction - but it wasn't pretty.


I do think it's brilliant defense. Winky connected on every other one of his opponents with such ease; the majority couldn't see Bernard doing anything to stop it from happening to him. And he did. He did something.


People would **** on Willie Pep nowadays if he was fighting. Pep would tie opponents up and "hug" and then he would do a little "running."


This is Boxing. Bernard neutralized completely; Antonio Tarver and Winky Wright. The Taylor losses were good for him. They took him to a level higher than he already was. He's a grandmaster now.

Fighters know that. Fighters see that.

His defense is invisible. It can't be seen - but it is as solid as a wall, and transparent as a pane of glass.

Try to hit Bernard Hopkins. He's not going to just move his head..

He's going to do about 6 things while you're trying to hit him.

[C.Y.]

How else are you going to beat the great Winky Wright?

Maybe I'm being more sympathetic because I stated before the fight that Hopkins would get the win and make it the ugliest win in history if that's what it took.. I don't think he achieved that distinction - but it wasn't pretty.


I do think it's brilliant defense. Winky connected on every other one of his opponents with such ease; the majority couldn't see Bernard doing anything to stop it from happening to him. And he did. He did something.


People would **** on Willie Pep nowadays if he was fighting. Pep would tie opponents up and "hug" and then he would do a little "running."


This is Boxing. Bernard neutralized completely; Antonio Tarver and Winky Wright. The Taylor losses were good for him. They took him to a level higher than he already was. He's a grandmaster now.

Fighters know that. Fighters see that.

His defense is invisible. It can't be seen - but it is as solid as a wall, and transparent as a pane of glass.

Try to hit Bernard Hopkins. He's not going to just move his head..

He's going to do about 6 things while you're trying to hit him.

you made very good points
but i cant give the title "grandmaster"
or give him credit for being the best defender
because he held too much
i respect your opinion because you actually went into detail and described what you were talking about
but i just cant give bernard the edge when it comes to defense because now he constantly holds
but he is older so if thats what he has to do to win then so be it
it worked for evan fields
but i still think the fighter with the best defense is floyd
btw i am a big fan of b-hop

[Addison]

you made very good points
but i cant give the title "grandmaster"
or give him credit for being the best defender
because he held too much
i respect your opinion because you actually went into detail and described what you were talking about
but i just cant give bernard the edge when it comes to defense because now he constantly holds
but he is older so if thats what he has to do to win then so be it
it worked for evan fields
but i still think the fighter with the best defense is floyd
btw i am a big fan of b-hop

I'm not a fan of Hopkins, but I'm in awe of his mastery.

Everyone has their own definition. For me a grandmaster tends to create the illusion that he's not doing very much. This is for the sake of his opponent more so than the audience. That is why Bernard has always been patient and never a crowd pleaser.

Clinching is not fan friendly, and it's not telegenically pleasing - but it is a time honored tradition and vital tool in the aresenal of a great defensive fighter. Saps like John Ruiz are huggers. It's not all the same thing exactly.

Mayweather has spider senses and puts his head out there.

He INDICATES.

Next time you get a chance watch some tape on Bernard. He can do all that head movement **** just as well and better. His style does not INDICATE.

Mayweather gets hit more than Bernard because his opponents can see what we see as observers. A guy with his hands low and his chin out daring his adversary to hit him - and they often do. Cleanly.

Styles make packages.

[tyson]

I agree that Hopkins posesses some awe-inspiring skills, defence being the most obvious of them. Bernard utilizes simple, yet effective tactics to avoid being hit, and to get inside the opponent's head.
Holding, clinching or whatever people like to call it is a tactic that's allowed in order to protect yourself, lately excessively so.

If somebody is repetedly holding you, then do something about it.
Move, duck, fend it off, learn how to uppercut, get stronger, throw him to the ground, anything.
You can't sit down and cry everytime somebody break a rule or do something you feel is wrong. Do something about it.

When it comes to the discussion of who has better defence, Mayweather or Hopkins, I think it's difficult to paint it black and white like that.
They do what work best for them as an overall package, and they use their defence as a tool to get an advantage offensively as well as just avoid getting hit.

With Hopkins, it's not just because it's difficult to hit him people struggles, it's because when you miss, something awkward will happen to you; be it a headbutt, elbow, kidney punch, getting clinched, left hooked or manhandled, something will happen.

Mayweather is different because he tries to achieve different things in a different way. He wants you to expend energy hitting nothing while setting yourself up for potshots and counters. He aims to outbox you, not to abuse you like Hopkins do.

I think Mayweather would be more difficult to hit if you placed both in the corner and threw 100 punches at them while they were just trying to slip and duck and block the punches.
Does that translate to a better defence? Maybe, but there's more aspects to take into consideration in an actual fight.

Hopkins is a master of the basics, nothing spectacular.
Mayweather is the opposite; a master of spectacular ****, but not much basics.

And if you look at it the cynical way, Mayweather relies on reflexes while Hopkins relies on pure skill and knowledge, making Hopkins a more skilled defensive fighter, no?
But a "better" defensive fighter in the slipping punches-sense?
Don't know, don't care. I don't have much opinion on this matter. Just like to make the mind float a bit...

[DIOS DOMINICANO]

[QUOTE=Wiley Hyena;2659361]

Well, Tszyu and De LaHoya never fought. So we will never know. But, I do not think that the De LaHoya of today is nearly as good as the De LaHoya of yesterday (rhetorically speaking), and Kostya Tszyu was one tough SOB. Furthermore, your statement that today's De LaHoya could beat Hatton is subject to legitimate debate. I mean there are comparison fights that are reasonably not subject to debate...for example: Prime George Foreman v. John Ruiz. But, today's De LaHoya v. Hatton and Tszyu don't fit in that category. That is simply your opinion, but it is subject to legitimate debate. For that reason, your analysis is weak and unconvincing.

So, let me ensure that I understand what you are saying:

The 33/34 year old Oscar is definitely not as good as the "prime" Oscar...... but it is "debatable" if the 36 year old Tszyu had slipped?


I can't discuss this with you. You are very biased.

[DIOS DOMINICANO]

I think Castillo's main problem was his balance... did you see him go down in a clinch in the first round, did you notice he got knocked around by every shot, even if he blocked it? It reminded me of the way Vernon Forrest looked against Mayorga the first time, when Forrest couldn't keep Mayorga off him (on account of his ****ed up shoulder).

I don't know, Emanuel Steward said he was surprised by how bad he looked in the first 10 seconds. There was just some intangible that wasn't there for him, he just kind of seemed... off.
Regardless of whether Castillo was shot or not, Dios's argument stands that opposition and performance mean two different things.

For Mayweather
De La Hoya win = good opposition. Gatti win = good performance. Corrales win = both.

I think Castillo definately falls under good performance. But I also firmly agree that Castillo going down was not just because he is ****ed as a fighter. I already told you that Hatton looked good as gold that night, so it was probably a mixture. That body shot would cripple most people temporarily though.

Let's not forget that Castillo looked crappy against Reyes, and we attributed that to "he doesn't take weak opposition seriously". And then he almost lost (did lose) to Ngoudjo and we said "he took him lightly".

Then he looked like **** early in the Hatton fight.

When you consider that Castillo had not looked good in a ring in a long time, his previous troubles making weight, the inactivity, his financial problems (he took home under 200K for that fight), HIS BROTHER'S DEATH, ETC.... I think it's fair to say that the Castillo that Hatton faced was not the same Castillo that Floyd faced in his two fights or that Chico faced in their first war. PERIOD.
There is

[DIOS DOMINICANO]

Hopkins is a master of the basics, nothing spectacular.
Mayweather is the opposite; a master of spectacular ****, but not much basics.

...

That is an insane statement. I.N.S.A.N.E.

Floyd Mayweather, Jr is one of the most classical, fundamentally sound fighters that we have seen in a LONG time. A long time.

[bdevils]

And that clip reminds me how weak Corley is. He is built like a teenage girl. Look at how he is throwing those power shots. They could not knock down a midget. Floyd probably whipped him good when they were sparring partners before they evenetually met up and fought. Corley is intimidated from the get go and just hit him with a lukcy shot.

If Hatton happens to buzz Hatton the same...Floyd is in for a world of hurt.

Floyd and Cotto were both stunned by Corley so how can you say that clip shows how weak he is?