Did Greb duck Panama Gans?

[travestyny]

Yes, Kearns did what he should have done, "willing to fight the original opponent Joe Bond" (a nobody) not Joe Jeannette a very good somebody.

You think he should be bound to a dirty trick because you like that particular fighter.

Thanks for proving my point.

LMAO. A dirty trick, huh?


I knew you'd make up an excuse It clearly says he was willing to fight ANYONE three days out.

And he was willing to fight 2 white men instead of one black man. You figure it out.


Let me give you a hint: He didn't swerve Jeannette because he was too good. She swerved him because he was Black. Even the crowd making it clear that they wanted the fight wouldn't make him change his mind.

[travestyny]

Who was Joe Bond his "original" opponent? I know these sources are not designed to show the situation en total... Its just confusing to me because It sounded from the original source that they had a time finding him an opponent, got this guy "Joe Bond?" and then we hear that jeanette is in the ring...

And to compound the difficulty Dempsey is (seemingly) braggadocious, telling the crowd he will fight two men (rather than Jeanette?) ... And then almost in a footnote it is mentioned his original opponent would only be allowed to fight him. We never learn anything about this original opponent and why he is not in the ring.

This is unrelated but I could not help but wonder how this whole thing holds together from the start. Seems like the crowd was behind Jeanette.

Well Joe Jeannette was there to fight...Kid Norfolk I believe.


I don't know too much about Joe Bond, but that was indeed to be Dempsey's opponent, but he too, like Norfolk, had to pull out for whatever reason.

With both of them having opponents who pulled out, it would make sense. It was only an exhibition for 4-6 rounds I believe.

[billeau2]

Well Joe Jeannette was there to fight...Kid Norfolk I believe.


I don't know too much about Joe Bond, but that was indeed to be Dempsey's opponent, but he too, like Norfolk, had to pull out for whatever reason.

With both of them having opponents who pulled out, it would make sense. It was only an exhibition for 4-6 rounds I believe.

That makes much more sense...Jeanette didn't happen to arrive, he was in a match and both his and Dempsey's opponent cancelled. Thanks.

[louis54]

That makes much more sense...Jeanette didn't happen to arrive, he was in a match and both his and Dempsey's opponent cancelled. Thanks.

Yep, jeanette lucked out as dempsey would have spalltered him

[Willie Pep 229]

Can I repeat my post to T, to you? do you have any idea how this whole situation held together?

and we probably never will, it was New York . . . I suspect it was Kearns doing the bragging . . . Dempsey was kind of shy and not the type to be yelling back at the audience . . .

what I envision . . . much chaos in the ring with Kearns seeing Jeannette in the opposing corner and running around yelling "no way, no way." . . . You know kinda Lou Duva like!

and certainly the crowd was in with Jeannette . . . he was the home town boy fighting out of Jersey . . . and besides if you bought a cheap ticket to a charity night of exhibitions and saw a chance you might get an established popular pro (Jeannette) going at it with a rising new star (Dempsey) you and I would both be screaming for the fight to happen

I don't think anyone in the audience was concerned whether any sense of justice occurred either way LOL

Still say it was a dirty trick -- Kearns did the right thing by his fighter -- we don't know if it was racial

[Willie Pep 229]

Yep, jeanette lucked out as dempsey would have spalltered him

I disagree -- Jeannette was very good and Dempsey wouldn't have had his head on straight -- Dempsey needed to be at his best to best Jeannette. IMO it would have been a big mistake to take the fight.

Dempsey was on a championship run and a title shot was only one fight away (Fulton) -- you don't throw away two years of climbing by letting your guy get blind sighted in a charity fight

[travestyny]

-- we don't know if it was racial

Um...Yes we do.

[GhostofDempsey]

It was a common dirty trick to switch fighters at the last minute trying to catch a big name fighter off guard/unprepared. MSG tried the same deal with Dempsey.

Dempsey (pre-champion but on the rise) was invited/scheduled for a four round exhibition (charity fight) against a nobody and as he climbed through the ropes Doc Kearns recognized that they switched the nobody with Jean Jeannette (local boy with local backing).

It was a dirty trick attempt to try to catch the then rising star Dempsey unprepared and steal his mojo. Kearns wasn't buying it and took Dempsey from the ring, and the crowd booed, of course.

People today even want to call Dempsey on it saying that he "ducked" Jeannette. You are now doing the same thing with Greb, you are pointing to a proper refusal to a dirty trick ambush and suggesting it discredits a great fighter.

I am sure you know well that a fighter has to be mentally ready for big fight and getting ambushed at the last minute as he climbs through the ropes (with a considerably better fighter than expected) is a "dirty trick" that needs to be avoided.

Switching fighters was a common dirty trick used and it's one of the reasons why fighters had to give up a % of their purses to managers, for protection!

A fight with Jeannette would have been a big money event. Dempsey wasn’t going to be conned into fighting him for free. Mayweather says he can beat any fighter, imagine if he is all set to fight another no-hoper exhibition against a Japanese kickboxer, and then Crawford comes down from the audience and steps in the ring to fight him. Any chance Floyd will fight him even if Crawford won't leave the ring? Not a chance! There are clowns who love to hold Dempsey to a higher standard and take every hundred year old article they read as gospel, the end all be all. You have to let those clowns stay under their circus tents where they belong.

[Willie Pep 229]

I only know this story from an excerpt I can't find online. I will do my best to tell the tale from memory in my words without ****ing it up, but, if y'all need me to scan the pages I've lifted the tale from to know what the heck I'm on about I'll do that....you know, later.


So, I don't have a date for you, or even a location...****, but, Apparently Greb was scheduled to defend against another man, who I forgot. That fight fell threw with only days to find a replacement. Panama Joe would come in as the replacement.

Joe and Harry's teams would have made this deal. There is no proof Harry knew of the change until the day of.

Harry's manager gave a speak that basically said they are drawing the colorline. The crowd boo'd do Harry took over. The crowd was ok with Harry's spiel until he called Panama a n!g in full though. Panama set toward Harry, Harry apologized and he and his manager left while thew crowd boo'd and threw trash.

Papers of the time would point out Greb had no problem fighting Willie Langford for the MW title but now that he has to face a man of Panama's caliber he's ready to draw the line and stay safe.


Is that a fair depiction? Was Harry Greb, one of the most fightingest mug to ever fight, worried as champion about black men making him look bad?

Was it just short notice ya reckon or is this something Harry actually did a few times?

I realize after the Willie fight Greb fought black men, but never Gans. I'm not asking if he ducked blacks, clearly he didn't, it's just kind of shocking to hear any kind of turn down from team Greb. He has a mystique these days ya know, and, unless I'm well off isn't he the guy who gave blacks a chance at the MW title anyway? Tiger's the first black MW champ because Greb did that work....bit of a shock to hear he didn't want Panama on his record....to me.


edit- I see the mistakes, they're not as important as this though. I don't feel like I posed the question well. Does Panama being black have part of it or is it simply this is a good fight on short notice Greb would rather train for, or some such similar? It is worse, in the teens and twnties to lose to a black man than to lose right? Would Greb have weighed that as well or is it simple situational and any man in Joe position good enough to warrant a camp would have been turned down?

Looks like T and I high-jacked your thread, sorry about that. -- Dempsey and the 'color line' is like raw meat for both me and T.


Anyone got anything on Greb/Panama Joe Gans?

[travestyny]

A fight with Jeannette would have been a big money event. Dempsey wasn’t going to be conned into fighting him for free. Mayweather says he can beat any fighter, imagine if he is all set to fight another no-hoper exhibition against a Japanese kickboxer, and then Crawford comes down from the audience and steps in the ring to fight him. Any chance Floyd will fight him even if Crawford won't leave the ring? Not a chance! There are clowns who love to hold Dempsey to a higher standard and take every hundred year old article they read as gospel, the end all be all. You have to let those clowns stay under their circus tents where they belong.

I disagree. I think if Mayweather specifically said he'd fight ANY welterweight in the world 4 days out of a 4 - 6 round exhibition match and Crawford pops out, Mayweather fights him. Plus, this would be a Floyd that was just approaching his prime. Yea. Disagree.

If he's ready to fight ANYONE at 4 days, it's not going to matter to him. Plus, he's probably not going to have an issue with the color of Crawford's skin.