Did Greb duck Panama Gans?

[louis54]

Gans ducked greb...greb ducked no one

[HOUDINI563]

Greb was the ultimate bad ass. They don’t make fighters like that any more.

[Marchegiano]

Kevin R Smith, Sundowners, Page 468:


Leo Flynn had signed Panama Joe for a ten round preliminary bout against Al Rogers, an
upstate, white middleweight at Syracuse, New York in early December 1919. The main event
that night was supposed to have been Harry Greb and Clay Turner. When Flynn and Gans
reached Syracuse they learned that Al Rogers had ducked out of his bout with joe. Citing that
he did not wish to fight a black man in front of his home crowd, Rogers, simply begged out.
Promoter oe Dunfee attempted to bring in a late substitute but could find no takers. To add
to his problems, the day before the event, Clay Turner wired from New York City that he had
injured his leg and could not meet Greb. The wily Dunfee approached Flynn with the idea
that Gans and Greb could draw a similar, if not larger crowd than Greb-Turner. Leo, after
asking for more money, agreed. It is unclear as to whether or not Greb knew of the
substitution, but when he entered the Arena Athletic Club ring and saw, the long, dark
Panama Joe Gans standing across from him, he was not pleased. Harry refused to fight and
drew the ire of the crowd when he waved them off as they razzed him. Reddy Mason, Greb’s
manager, addressed the crowd and attempted to explain the particulars of the situation, but
was shouted down quickly. The Syracuse Herald reported that Reddy’s speech basically boiled
down to the fact that “He and Greb drew the color line”. The crowd settled down when Greb
took over, pleading his case to the crowd. However, when he used the word “******” in
reference to Gans, the crowd roared its disapproval. Panama Joe himself took exception to ’
Harry’s slur and began to cross the ring towards his adversary. Greb held up his open hands
and immediately apologized to Gans for the wrongdoing. Harry then offered to box Young
Fischer, who was in the crowd, but the latter was not interested. Harry and Mason then made
a quick exit from the ring amid a showering of catcalls and debris. The Herald reported the
next day, “Panama Joe Gans is not a champion, but champions and other near champions,
such as Greb, would rather avoid such a tough bird, and Gans scales lighter than Greb.
While Greb now draws the color line it was just a few years ago that he fought Willie
Langford, the colored middleweight at Buffalo. But Greb has since got himself a reputation
and can now “pick” his opponents.”


Is that a duck?

[Willie Pep 229]

Kevin R Smith, Sundowners, Page 468:


Leo Flynn had signed Panama Joe for a ten round preliminary bout against Al Rogers, an
upstate, white middleweight at Syracuse, New York in early December 1919. The main event
that night was supposed to have been Harry Greb and Clay Turner. When Flynn and Gans
reached Syracuse they learned that Al Rogers had ducked out of his bout with joe. Citing that
he did not wish to fight a black man in front of his home crowd, Rogers, simply begged out.
Promoter oe Dunfee attempted to bring in a late substitute but could find no takers. To add
to his problems, the day before the event, Clay Turner wired from New York City that he had
injured his leg and could not meet Greb. The wily Dunfee approached Flynn with the idea
that Gans and Greb could draw a similar, if not larger crowd than Greb-Turner. Leo, after
asking for more money, agreed. It is unclear as to whether or not Greb knew of the
substitution, but when he entered the Arena Athletic Club ring and saw, the long, dark
Panama Joe Gans standing across from him, he was not pleased. Harry refused to fight and
drew the ire of the crowd when he waved them off as they razzed him. Reddy Mason, Greb’s
manager, addressed the crowd and attempted to explain the particulars of the situation, but
was shouted down quickly. The Syracuse Herald reported that Reddy’s speech basically boiled
down to the fact that “He and Greb drew the color line”. The crowd settled down when Greb
took over, pleading his case to the crowd. However, when he used the word “******” in
reference to Gans, the crowd roared its disapproval. Panama Joe himself took exception to ’
Harry’s slur and began to cross the ring towards his adversary. Greb held up his open hands
and immediately apologized to Gans for the wrongdoing. Harry then offered to box Young
Fischer, who was in the crowd, but the latter was not interested. Harry and Mason then made
a quick exit from the ring amid a showering of catcalls and debris. The Herald reported the
next day, “Panama Joe Gans is not a champion, but champions and other near champions,
such as Greb, would rather avoid such a tough bird, and Gans scales lighter than Greb.
While Greb now draws the color line it was just a few years ago that he fought Willie
Langford, the colored middleweight at Buffalo. But Greb has since got himself a reputation
and can now “pick” his opponents.”


Is that a duck?

If this is to be taken as the whole truth then I would say it's not a 'duck' but a color line decision.' (racist)

What's weird about the passage is Smith makes the entire story sound racist right down to Greb using the N word, but then oddly concludes that Greb was afraid of Gans.

Nothing in the his narrative suggest this fear but much does suggest a strong disrespectful racism on Greb's part (if true). So why does he then jump to the conclusion that Greb was afraid?

Me thinks he wants both wrongs to exist.

This excerpt comes from his work entailed The Sundowners: The History of the Black Prize Fighter.

This is a secondary source, written in 2006, and I would watch it doesn't have an agenda, it certainly has a particular "point of view.'

In short, not a 'duck,' -- a color line decision, according to the words this narrative places in Harry Greb's mouth, Harry Greb is a racist. But this narrative is odd.

[Marchegiano]

If this is to be taken as the whole truth then I would say it's not a 'duck' but a color line decision.' (racist)

What's weird about the passage is Smith makes the entire story sound racist right down to Greb using the N word, but then oddly concludes that Greb was afraid of Gans.

Nothing in the his narrative suggest this fear but much does suggest a strong disrespectful racism on Greb's part (if true). So why does he then jump to the conclusion that Greb was afraid?

Me thinks he wants both wrongs to exist.

This excerpt comes from his work entailed The Sundowners: The History of the Black Prize Fighter.

This is a secondary source, written in 2006, and I would watch it doesn't have an agenda, it certainly has a particular "point of view.'

In short, not a 'duck,' -- a color line decision, according to the words this narrative places in Harry Greb's mouth, Harry Greb is a racist. But this narrative is odd.

I think because Harry used racism as an out in that instance but not every instance racism would apply. I think Kevin's pointing the reader toward a fake racism to dodge a fight. That's what i got from it anyway. And maybe it's unfair to say Kevin so much as the Syracuse Herald?




I've uploaded the original scan JIC I ****ed up something on the transcription.

https://ia601404.us.archive.org/27/i...00713_0001.pdf

[travestyny]

If this is to be taken as the whole truth then I would say it's not a 'duck' but a color line decision.' (racist)

If you classify this as a color line decision (racist), surely you must classify the situation with Dempsey the same. It's nearly the same scenario, and they both used racially charged language to explain their decision. Though of course, Dempsey didn't go as far as to use the N-word.

[Willie Pep 229]

I think because Harry used racism as an out in that instance but not every instance racism would apply. I think Kevin's pointing the reader toward a fake racism to dodge a fight. That's what i got from it anyway. And maybe it's unfair to say Kevin so much as the Syracuse Herald?




I've uploaded the original scan JIC I ****ed up something on the transcription.

https://ia601404.us.archive.org/27/i...00713_0001.pdf

Ok . . . you got me thinking . . . regading the color line there seems to be four types of white fighters at play during this time:

1. The philosophical racist: the 'white supremacist' who wants no interaction; doesn't want to provide any opportunity for Black fighters.

2. The apologist: holds no personal animosity but sees crossing the color line as an unnecessary controversy, for less money.

3. The opportunist #1: a champion who recognizes he can maintain his title easier by simply drawing the color line.

4. The opportunist #2: a fighter who only takes on Black fighters when it's a form of necessity, whether it be 'proving oneself' (Corbett-Jackson); or the inability to find good opponents (Burns-Johnson) otherwise he avoids Black fighters.

One doesn't want to force a square peg in to a round hole but I think these four temperaments are a good place to start when trying to evaluate a white fighter's intent/actions/decisions.

Back to Greb.

We still have the issue that he appeared there expecting a discount opponent and found instead a top shelf opponent staring back at him.

I still say, you don't let your guy take a fight like that; probably best not to talk to the crowd.

P.S. Why do you say the Syracuse Herald, doesn't that narrative come from the book I mentioned, Sundowners, The History of the Black Fighters?

[Marchegiano]

Ok . . . you got me thinking . . . regading the color line there seems to be four types of white fighters at play during this time:

1. The philosophical racist: the 'white supremacist' who wants no interaction; doesn't want to provide any opportunity for Black fighters.

2. The apologist: holds no personal animosity but sees crossing the color line as an unnecessary controversy, for less money.

3. The opportunist #1: a champion who recognizes he can maintain his title easier by simply drawing the color line.

4. The opportunist #2: a fighter who only takes on Black fighters when it's a form of necessity, whether it be 'proving oneself' (Corbett-Jackson); or the inability to find good opponents (Burns-Johnson) otherwise he avoids Black fighters.

One doesn't want to force a square peg in to a round hole but I think these four temperaments are a good place to start when trying to evaluate a white fighter's intent/actions/decisions.

Back to Greb.

We still have the issue that he appeared there expecting a discount opponent and found instead a top shelf opponent staring back at him.

I still say, you don't let your guy take a fight like that; probably best not to talk to the crowd.

P.S. Why do you say the Syracuse Herald, doesn't that narrative come from the book I mentioned, Sundowners, The History of the Black Fighters?

Or a mix of any of them at various levels.

Yes, I agree the switch-a-roo definitely gives Greb room to deny Gans purely on the timing, but why not just deny him that way? Why use colorline? Just easier? Maybe they thought the crowd would be more understanding of a colorline objection than a short notice objection?

Because I don't see his opinion in the piece. I see the Herald's quoted opinion, but I don't feel like Kevin wrote his own.

At this section of the book he's going over why Gans went through a period were he struggled to make good fights.

Most of it reads like my OP really, just a man telling a story that is meant to have happened. He doesn't pretend to have been there, he doesn't, to me, give his opinion, he just tells you a story and where it came from and uses the opinion sections of his source for the opinion of the day or at least the coverage of that day from them.


To secondary and primary sources, yes, I'm well aware. I've been made to look a fool a few times relying on books.

I was hoping to get a primary out of someone that isn't the Herald. I figure I'll probably see more or less what Kevin wrote from the Syracuse paper, but, if someone else covered it, for some reason the brooklyn eagle or maybe police gazette and then the chances of an alternative perspective contemporary to the Herald goes up.


I'm a bit harder on fighters. Right now it's looking like a duck to me. An understandable one I'd've done myself, but still a duck. Gans was short notice too, he was game....only one man wasn't so that's a duck. I don't think less of Greb, he's probably just smart enough to be a bit self aware is all, but, still see it as a duck.

I was hoping for more of a Greb couldn't for some reason or another. A bit like the riot talks and such other color line champs sited.

[Willie Pep 229]

Or a mix of any of them at various levels.

Yes, I agree the switch-a-roo definitely gives Greb room to deny Gans purely on the timing, but why not just deny him that way? Why use colorline? Just easier? Maybe they thought the crowd would be more understanding of a colorline objection than a short notice objection?

Because I don't see his opinion in the piece. I see the Herald's quoted opinion, but I don't feel like Kevin wrote his own.

At this section of the book he's going over why Gans went through a period were he struggled to make good fights.

Most of it reads like my OP really, just a man telling a story that is meant to have happened. He doesn't pretend to have been there, he doesn't, to me, give his opinion, he just tells you a story and where it came from and uses the opinion sections of his source for the opinion of the day or at least the coverage of that day from them.


To secondary and primary sources, yes, I'm well aware. I've been made to look a fool a few times relying on books.

I was hoping to get a primary out of someone that isn't the Herald. I figure I'll probably see more or less what Kevin wrote from the Syracuse paper, but, if someone else covered it, for some reason the brooklyn eagle or maybe police gazette and then the chances of an alternative perspective contemporary to the Herald goes up.


I'm a bit harder on fighters. Right now it's looking like a duck to me. An understandable one I'd've done myself, but still a duck. Gans was short notice too, he was game....only one man wasn't so that's a duck. I don't think less of Greb, he's probably just smart enough to be a bit self aware is all, but, still see it as a duck.

I was hoping for more of a Greb couldn't for some reason or another. A bit like the riot talks and such other color line champs sited.

The way I see it if Smith chose to quote the newspaper in his book, he's married to it, right or wrong. That a responsibility a historian takes on.

I understand your point that only one guy walked away, so therefore it's a duck, but there was a big difference in what each guy loses if he loses. It's a risk Panama Joe Gans would want to take, not a risk an already marquee fighter like Greb should take. I feel they are coming from two different realities.

Also how many days before did Gans know, Greb seems to have found out that night, was it the same for Gans?

I don't get the need for the racist remarks either, but like you said he probably though he could walk away unscathed by drawing the color line. That's why I said 'it's probably better not to talk to the audience.'

[Willie Pep 229]

Or a mix of any of them at various levels.

Yes, I agree the switch-a-roo definitely gives Greb room to deny Gans purely on the timing, but why not just deny him that way? Why use colorline? Just easier? Maybe they thought the crowd would be more understanding of a colorline objection than a short notice objection?

Because I don't see his opinion in the piece. I see the Herald's quoted opinion, but I don't feel like Kevin wrote his own.

At this section of the book he's going over why Gans went through a period were he struggled to make good fights.

Most of it reads like my OP really, just a man telling a story that is meant to have happened. He doesn't pretend to have been there, he doesn't, to me, give his opinion, he just tells you a story and where it came from and uses the opinion sections of his source for the opinion of the day or at least the coverage of that day from them.


To secondary and primary sources, yes, I'm well aware. I've been made to look a fool a few times relying on books.

I was hoping to get a primary out of someone that isn't the Herald. I figure I'll probably see more or less what Kevin wrote from the Syracuse paper, but, if someone else covered it, for some reason the brooklyn eagle or maybe police gazette and then the chances of an alternative perspective contemporary to the Herald goes up.


I'm a bit harder on fighters. Right now it's looking like a duck to me. An understandable one I'd've done myself, but still a duck. Gans was short notice too, he was game....only one man wasn't so that's a duck. I don't think less of Greb, he's probably just smart enough to be a bit self aware is all, but, still see it as a duck.

I was hoping for more of a Greb couldn't for some reason or another. A bit like the riot talks and such other color line champs sited.

P.S. I too went looking for a second source but came up empty. Will keep and eye out.