Did Greb duck Panama Gans?

[travestyny]

Looks like T and I high-jacked your thread, sorry about that. -- Dempsey and the 'color line' is like raw meat for both me and T.


Anyone got anything on Greb/Panama Joe Gans?

Let me just ask you one more thing about this.


Would it matter if it were racial?

[QueensburyRules]

I only know this story from an excerpt I can't find online. I will do my best to tell the tale from memory in my words without ****ing it up, but, if y'all need me to scan the pages I've lifted the tale from to know what the heck I'm on about I'll do that....you know, later.


So, I don't have a date for you, or even a location...****, but, Apparently Greb was scheduled to defend against another man, who I forgot. That fight fell threw with only days to find a replacement. Panama Joe would come in as the replacement.

Joe and Harry's teams would have made this deal. There is no proof Harry knew of the change until the day of.

Harry's manager gave a speak that basically said they are drawing the colorline. The crowd boo'd do Harry took over. The crowd was ok with Harry's spiel until he called Panama a n!g in full though. Panama set toward Harry, Harry apologized and he and his manager left while thew crowd boo'd and threw trash.

Papers of the time would point out Greb had no problem fighting Willie Langford for the MW title but now that he has to face a man of Panama's caliber he's ready to draw the line and stay safe.


Is that a fair depiction? Was Harry Greb, one of the most fightingest mug to ever fight, worried as champion about black men making him look bad?

Was it just short notice ya reckon or is this something Harry actually did a few times?

I realize after the Willie fight Greb fought black men, but never Gans. I'm not asking if he ducked blacks, clearly he didn't, it's just kind of shocking to hear any kind of turn down from team Greb. He has a mystique these days ya know, and, unless I'm well off isn't he the guy who gave blacks a chance at the MW title anyway? Tiger's the first black MW champ because Greb did that work....bit of a shock to hear he didn't want Panama on his record....to me.


edit- I see the mistakes, they're not as important as this though. I don't feel like I posed the question well. Does Panama being black have part of it or is it simply this is a good fight on short notice Greb would rather train for, or some such similar? It is worse, in the teens and twnties to lose to a black man than to lose right? Would Greb have weighed that as well or is it simple situational and any man in Joe position good enough to warrant a camp would have been turned down?

- -Feeling a bit haphazard today are you?

Always the dawn of tomorrow!

[Willie Pep 229]

Let me just ask you one more thing about this.


Would it matter if it were racial?

Yes but qualified. If it is a philosophical racism it would bother me to no end and I would be sorely disappointed in Dempsey if I thought that was his reasoning with Wills. I do not believe it was.

If, on the other hand, it occurs as a product of de facto racism, I can understand why a Champion (of any color) would want to avoid a tougher fight for less money. The racism lies in the fact that Black fighters put less asses in the seats (and the fights sometimes caused controversy) simply because the fighter was Black. -- I would still see this as a wrong but would have some understanding as to why that particular fighter made the 'wrong' decision he made.

A good example of this latter type of systemic racism is Henry Armstrong choosing Zivic over Burley. Armstrong and Zivic packed MSG in back to back fights. Chances are an Armstrong-Burley fight doesn't.

Certainly Armstrong's decision isn't philosophical, but it was likely, in part, a decision grown out of the de facto realities of a racist society.

For the Record: At that time Armstrong was ducking the #1 contender SRR; Burley and Zivic had a trilogy and it came out in Burley's favor 2-1.

I would argue that Armstrong ducked Burley by taking on Zivic, and that the decision to do so, was partly effected by the racial realities of the day.

Those crowds, at that time in New York, were overwhelmingly 'Ellis Island' people and they wanted to see their own guys fight.

Possibly the same thing happened with Zale and Holman Williams.

[HOUDINI563]

Such BS.

So Ali is set to fight an exhibition vs Lyle Alzado. Ali gets into the ring and instead of Alzado he and his manager see Joe Frazier. The exhibition goes on? Not in a million years.

Further the poster need to study up on the color line. He has no idea of that history. Blindly making suggestive remarks that Dempsey was a racist is over the line. Every white heavyweight champion was bound to declare he would not allow a black fighter the opportunity to win the heavyweight championship. What you see with Dempseys with initially drawing the color line and rescinding it is a battle between Dempseys management and himself. Again this history is very well known and understood.

[QueensburyRules]

Such BS.

So Ali is set to fight an exhibition vs Lyle Alzado. Ali gets into the ring and instead of Alzado he and his manager see Joe Frazier. The exhibition goes on? Not in a million years.

Further the poster need to study up on the color line. He has no idea of that history. Blindly making suggestive remarks that Dempsey was a racist is over the line. Every white heavyweight champion was bound to declare he would not allow a black fighter the opportunity to win the heavyweight championship. What you see with Dempseys with initially drawing the color line and rescinding it is a battle between Dempseys management and himself. Again this history is very well known and understood.

- -Not bad.

[travestyny]

Such BS.

So Ali is set to fight an exhibition vs Lyle Alzado. Ali gets into the ring and instead of Alzado he and his manager see Joe Frazier. The exhibition goes on? Not in a million years.

Did Ali say he would be willing to fight ANY HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER? That's what Dempsey said 4 days out of the event. Then he was willing to fight ANY TWO WHITE HEAVYWEIGHTS instead of Jeannette.

You guys keep trying to give these scenarios but you don't even try to keep up with the details.

So if Ali said he would fight ANY HEAVYWEIGHT that the manager chooses for the charity 4 days out...I'm gonna guess he's prepared to fight ANY heavyweight.

Further the poster need to study up on the color line. He has no idea of that history. Blindly making suggestive remarks that Dempsey was a racist is over the line. Every white heavyweight champion was bound to declare he would not allow a black fighter the opportunity to win the heavyweight championship. What you see with Dempseys with initially drawing the color line and rescinding it is a battle between Dempseys management and himself. Again this history is very well known and understood.

I've never suggested that Dempsey was a racist. I said his refusal was due to racial reasons, which it clearly was and that can be proven.

And maybe you should study up. Dempsey wasn't champion at this time, so no, it wasn't about allowing a black fighter an opportunity for the championship (and by '22 the public was calling for him to fight Wills and he was pretending he was willing, so this is clearly just an excuse anyway.)


--Edit--

New thread made for this topic. Apologies again to Marchegiano

[Marchegiano]

Looks like T and I high-jacked your thread, sorry about that. -- Dempsey and the 'color line' is like raw meat for both me and T.


Anyone got anything on Greb/Panama Joe Gans?

It's fine, I didn't know this stuff either and you made a good point about the practice of surprise challengers and set ups.

[Marchegiano]

Did Ali say he would be willing to fight ANY HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER? That's what Dempsey said 4 days out of the event. Then he was willing to fight ANY TWO WHITE HEAVYWEIGHTS instead of Jeannette.

You guys keep trying to give these scenarios but you don't even try to keep up with the details.

So if Ali said he would fight ANY HEAVYWEIGHT that the manager chooses for the charity 4 days out...I'm gonna guess he's prepared to fight ANY heavyweight.



I've never suggested that Dempsey was a racist. I said his refusal was due to racial reasons, which it clearly was and that can be proven.

And maybe you should study up. Dempsey wasn't champion at this time, so no, it wasn't about allowing a black fighter an opportunity for the championship (and by '22 the public was calling for him to fight Wills and he was pretending he was willing, so this is clearly just an excuse anyway.)


--Edit--

New thread made for this topic. Apologies again to Marchegiano

Interesting stuff anyway bud.

If i'm direct and honest with you, I envy y'all's strong stances. I can't hardly tell with the colorline what is show and what is honest. I think if I was going to have to cover the same subject I'd have to take up both sides and present them in a reader's choice kind of format.

Y'all humble me.

[travestyny]

Interesting stuff anyway bud.

If i'm direct and honest with you, I envy y'all's strong stances. I can't hardly tell with the colorline what is show and what is honest. I think if I was going to have to cover the same subject I'd have to take up both sides and present them in a reader's choice kind of format.

Y'all humble me.

Thanks, but apologies are still in order. I was actually looking forward to not participating in this thread, but reading and learning in this thread. I find Greb to be pretty interesting and I wanted to know what was going to be said here. Didn't expect for it to turn into a thread about other fighters.

And everyone is welcome to their opinion. I'm not saying my opinion is right or that people need see it my way, though I certainly don't think my opinion is illogical. But it is what it is. I think we can pinpoint what happened and why it happened. After that, anyone can make up their own minds. But I was challenged to back up what I said, and I think I've done that.

[Marchegiano]

Thanks, but apologies are still in order. I was actually looking forward to not participating in this thread, but reading and learning in this thread. I find Greb to be pretty interesting and I wanted to know what was going to be said here. Didn't expect for it to turn into a thread about other fighters.

And everyone is welcome to their opinion. I'm not saying my opinion is right or that people need see it my way, though I certainly don't think my opinion is illogical. But it is what it is. I think we can pinpoint what happened and why it happened. After that, anyone can make up their own minds. But I was challenged to back up what I said, and I think I've done that.

I didn't want to get into it. Especially since both sides know more than me, I can't really present, or more importantly back, an argument myself, but, that any man statement then turning tail at a supposed setup is funny to me.


Often the stories about Godfrey and Sully are shared in a manner to relieve Sully his guilt for not fighting Godfrey. That's fine, and maybe it's true stuff too, but, no matter how you cut it, the man who " Can lick any son of a ***** in the building" not fighting the other premiere Boston attraction will always have a special irony to it.


I think it's a fair point. Regardless of situation. Y'all're a bit close to it, but, if Dempsey said he'd fight any man then the right man to make him say no showed up, understandable or not, that **** is funny.

Ali fighting any man in an ex and Frazier shows up day of, Ali says **** that noise, perfectly understandable, still funny as ****.