Why do people like Roberto Duran

[WalkerSmithJnr]

I'm saying a fighter that travels up in weight and wins world titles against bigger stronger fighters is a bigger achievement than a guy who fights in his own class and never tests himself....

Don't agree with this. With the amount of different weights now and 4 universally recognised governing bodies by putting on ten pounds you can fight for 16 titles.
A fighter who unifies all the titles and cleans out a division and holds the title for a number of years is more note worthy than a fighter who has a big lunch and pinches a belt off a champion who is the weakest title holder at his weight class.
Benny Leonard dominated a very strong division for a number of years
Sugar Ray Leonard for me made his reputation at welterweight against Hearns, Benetiz and Duran. Dazzling the judges in the last 30 seconds of rounds against a faded Hagler or beating Lalonde don't do much for me.

One is for boxing fans one is more for stats fans

[The plunger man]

Don't agree with this. With the amount of different weights now and 4 universally recognised governing bodies by putting on ten pounds you can fight for 40 titles.
A fighter who unifies all the titles and cleans out a division and holds the title for a number of years is more note worthy than a fighter who has a big lunch and pinches a belt off a champion who is the weakest title holder at his weight class.
Benny Leonard dominated a very strong division for a number of years
Sugar Ray Leonard for me made his reputation at welterweight against Hearns, Benetiz and Duran. Dazzling the judges in the last 30 seconds of rounds against a faded Hagler or beating Lalonde don't do much for me.

One is for boxing fans one is more for stats fans

obviously u misread it or misunderstood the whole debate.....leonard did clean out the welterweights before he went north of the division and even my own views would be that a boxer must control the divsions he is in before proving in higher weight classes ....this also applies to duran who cleaned out his division before he went to the welterweight divison ..if a fighter wants to carry on in a divsion after he has cleaned it out and there are other challenges beyond that weight then the boxer who takes that gamble in my eyes is greater fighter than the boxer who remains in the divsion and defend against mediocre challengers.....duran and leonard would not have the same reputation and status if duran had not beat leonard or leonard beat a kalule or hagler....that's a fact

[The plunger man]

Don't agree with this. With the amount of different weights now and 4 universally recognised governing bodies by putting on ten pounds you can fight for 16 titles.
A fighter who unifies all the titles and cleans out a division and holds the title for a number of years is more note worthy than a fighter who has a big lunch and pinches a belt off a champion who is the weakest title holder at his weight class.
Benny Leonard dominated a very strong division for a number of years
Sugar Ray Leonard for me made his reputation at welterweight against Hearns, Benetiz and Duran. Dazzling the judges in the last 30 seconds of rounds against a faded Hagler or beating Lalonde don't do much for me.

One is for boxing fans one is more for stats fans

This also applies more to the fighter from the past eras and I don't consider fighters of today in the same conversation to be honest...this is the history section fella

[Anthony342]

steveplunger;..... "less risk than rather gain 10lbs and face a very dangerous Michael spinks who was the dominant champion at lightheavy"

Gain 10 lbs??? Seriously? 160 to 175 is 15 pounds.
Spinks the night of his fights could easily hit the ring at 185lbs.
Hagler never gained more than 6 to 8 pounds fight night!
Spinks is one of the best punchers in light heavy history so you think it's a "challenge" to give away close to 20lbs to an ATG 175lb puncher?
Glad your not a manager you'd get fighters in some very bad business situations.

Your welcomed to your opinion of what went on then but I was very active in boxing at that time and probably have a lot more insight on these men then you do, ya think?

Everyone including Hagler knew Leonard put himself on hold and watched Hagler fight on and add years on his body. Power and hands don't leave veterans but your steps get slower and reactions too. Thats how Leonard out scored Hagler and some nice "track techniques" too!
It was a big deal for a welter king to challenge the middle king just as the real Sugar Ray did years before except Leonard waited years before he challenged. Don't give the eye routine because he could have challenged and got the fight with Hagler anytime he wanted.

Leonard learned from his early management that patience is a virtue in boxing. He fought very easy competition early in his career after he fought top notch amateurs for years! He trained at my gym for his 8th or 9th fight at the New Haven Col. when he fought a retired super feather/lightweight who just got his nose fixed 6 months prior to the fight hahaha guess what happened?

Hagler in his prime beats Leonard the same way Duran did! Pressure and a two handed attack. Their size was very even and body strength too a big difference was that Hagler could cut the ring down very well and lateral moves were a big part of Leonard's offense.
it would be close like their bout actually was but Hagler would have the edge that Leonard had as older fighters! That's just my opinion, been on fight cards with both of them a few times. I'm basing my opinion on what I've seen in person with the main edge going to Hagler's pain tolerances and determination.

enough of this it gets old after the 5th post!

nite boys Ray

Exactly. Leonard himself even admits this, so I don't know why people feel the need to argue this point. One only has to watch his Sportscentury biography to find this out. And he did the same earlier against Duran, getting a rematch 5 months after their first fight, knowing about Duran's struggles in between fights to make weight. Not saying Leonard did this his whole career, but at times he did. Like not fighting Duran a third time until 9 years later.

[WalkerSmithJnr]

.....duran and leonard would not have the same reputation and status if duran had not beat leonard or leonard beat a kalule or hagler....that's a fact

The Leonard win enhanced Duran's reputation and no mas diminished it and pretty much cancelled out Montreal. Duran at lightweight was historic and to many makes him the greatest lightweight in history which is enough to make him an atg.

[WalkerSmithJnr]

...this is the history section fella

I thought it was the boxingrec compare the stats section

[billeau2]

I would like to dovetail off a statement made from Scott to the effect that when we look at weight classes, whether a fighter decides to stay in a class, or jump, the most important variable is the context of the decision. Also, when one has a lot of junior weight classes, this context often gets jumbled. For example, Bronner jumps around weight classes to try to find low hanging fruit. There is really little to question about the Bronner strategy...Paulie M is not going to knock you out lol. You could also have guys in junior divisions who hang around because there is little competition...which is equally abhorrent. There should be some consideration regarding a guy staying in a pure weight class with more liberal limits...so to speak. But essentially It is all relative, there is no absolute as to whether a fighter is more a mensch if they go up/down in weight, or stay at a weight.... devoid of a context for the decision.

Hagler was not in a junior weight class, he fought tough competition and he cannot be blamed if fighters want to come in and try to take the title....in fact thats what the fight game is supposed to be about, the champ defending the title against those who want to try to take it.

I think some of the arguments advanced here are a mishmash where weight class gets thrown in there with no real understanding of the context...and that is why there is so much disagreement. Duran is not better than Hagler BECAUSE Hagler was a middleweight through and through. There are valid comparisons one can make between these two and none of them have to do with making the weight and/or changing weight classes. Duran could not fight at his prime weight later in his career...Hagler could so if anything its a moot point.

Regarding Sugar Ray its a similar situation. The weight SR fought Hagler at has nothing to do with the way that fight went. It had to do with timing, entropy, and to the different styles brought to bare. Its not unreasonable to think that Hagler would need all his pressure tactics, and perhaps a bit more youth, to work against a fighter as mobile as Leonard and be optimal...Notice i didn't mention Leonard's primary weapons, his counter punching, his speed, which would always present the same dilemna to Hagler...i am specifically addressing the issue of Hagler not having as much mobility as he once had. But this is just a factor and not a reason why this fight was not fair to Hagler.

With Hearns once again, weight class has little to do with how the fight went. It is fair to say Hearn's hand was a factor in this fight.

My point is that none of the comparisons people make about who is better between Hagler, Duran, leonard and Hearns should bring up the supplemental issue of weight class. All these guys fought tough competition...the fights among them were competative, nobody was outclassed, and like all matches there were factors that had implications. Yes Leonard decided to fight a certain way against Duran, yes Hearns broke his hand, yes Marvin was older and on the downslide when fighting Leonard, and yes Duran was smaller than Hagler coming up to meet him, all contributing & intriguing elements in a series of fights that showed these men were in the same class as each other. For example, Nobody thinks Duran was outclassed by Hagler, its usually a matter of how close the fight was on points.

When we talk about Gatti versus Floyd, we don't even think to mention any of the factors that may have affected each man in the fight....why is that? could it be that precisely because these men were in an entirely different class that it did not matter? We mention the particulars precisely because the fab four were so well matched...and the weight class fought in had little to do with it.

[The plunger man]

The Leonard win enhanced Duran's reputation and no mas diminished it and pretty much cancelled out Montreal. Duran at lightweight was historic and to many makes him the greatest lightweight in history which is enough to make him an atg.

As I said to you before...Duran won weights at welterweight, jnr middlweight and middleweight and to say he would have the same reputation if he stayed in lightweight is waffle....we're talking about boxers who rose above there best weight and competed in a higher divisiion and was still successful and that is far more greater than a boxer who stayed in the same division fighting the likes of obelmejias, sycpion or caveman Lee ....the part about the history section is winning titles in 1982,83 or 84 is a lot harder than it is wining now the WBO,IBF,WBA,WBC or what ever else is out there ...now if you take away palomino,cuevas,Leonard,Moore,hagler,hearns and Barkley Duran would not be considered in the top 10 p4p champions of all time...don't comete with me on this I will tie you up in knots.....basically haglers legacy is built on boxers who travelled up through weights and fought hagler with a physical disadvantage ..Duran at 18 was 128lb and hagler at 18 was 160lb that's a natural weight advantage of 32lb and u consider duran a bietter fighter..and you are an idiot if you don't think Duran travelling up all them weights and still managing push marvin hagler all the way to a close decision is less impressive than a fighter who stays in his own weight who can match the fighters in his weight class.....why do you think the likes of Harry greb or Henry Armstrong are so highly ranked in the ATG list......again another poster who don't understand the complexity of moving up out your natural weight zone and still being at the top.....hagler is not on Robinson's,Leonard,Duran,Armstrong,walkers or arguello's level and there's a reason for that

[The plunger man]

I would like to dovetail off a statement made from Scott to the effect that when we look at weight classes, whether a fighter decides to stay in a class, or jump, the most important variable is the context of the decision. Also, when one has a lot of junior weight classes, this context often gets jumbled. For example, Bronner jumps around weight classes to try to find low hanging fruit. There is really little to question about the Bronner strategy...Paulie M is not going to knock you out lol. You could also have guys in junior divisions who hang around because there is little competition...which is equally abhorrent. There should be some consideration regarding a guy staying in a pure weight class with more liberal limits...so to speak. But essentially It is all relative, there is no absolute as to whether a fighter is more a mensch if they go up/down in weight, or stay at a weight.... devoid of a context for the decision.

Hagler was not in a junior weight class, he fought tough competition and he cannot be blamed if fighters want to come in and try to take the title....in fact thats what the fight game is supposed to be about, the champ defending the title against those who want to try to take it.

I think some of the arguments advanced here are a mishmash where weight class gets thrown in there with no real understanding of the context...and that is why there is so much disagreement. Duran is not better than Hagler BECAUSE Hagler was a middleweight through and through. There are valid comparisons one can make between these two and none of them have to do with making the weight and/or changing weight classes. Duran could not fight at his prime weight later in his career...Hagler could so if anything its a moot point.

Regarding Sugar Ray its a similar situation. The weight SR fought Hagler at has nothing to do with the way that fight went. It had to do with timing, entropy, and to the different styles brought to bare. Its not unreasonable to think that Hagler would need all his pressure tactics, and perhaps a bit more youth, to work against a fighter as mobile as Leonard and be optimal...Notice i didn't mention Leonard's primary weapons, his counter punching, his speed, which would always present the same dilemna to Hagler...i am specifically addressing the issue of Hagler not having as much mobility as he once had. But this is just a factor and not a reason why this fight was not fair to Hagler.

With Hearns once again, weight class has little to do with how the fight went. It is fair to say Hearn's hand was a factor in this fight.

My point is that none of the comparisons people make about who is better between Hagler, Duran, leonard and Hearns should bring up the supplemental issue of weight class. All these guys fought tough competition...the fights among them were competative, nobody was outclassed, and like all matches there were factors that had implications. Yes Leonard decided to fight a certain way against Duran, yes Hearns broke his hand, yes Marvin was older and on the downslide when fighting Leonard, and yes Duran was smaller than Hagler coming up to meet him, all contributing & intriguing elements in a series of fights that showed these men were in the same class as each other. For example, Nobody thinks Duran was outclassed by Hagler, its usually a matter of how close the fight was on points.

When we talk about Gatti versus Floyd, we don't even think to mention any of the factors that may have affected each man in the fight....why is that? could it be that precisely because these men were in an entirely different class that it did not matter? We mention the particulars precisely because the fab four were so well matched...and the weight class fought in had little to do with it.

Again billieau I would have no issue in somebody expressing there opinion on hagler beating Leonard or vice versa ....it the ohh I think hagler would have walked threw Leonard if hagler was in his prime.....well when he boxed Duran he didn't ....it was a close fight and Duran for most parts of the 15 round fight they competed on even terms...then they say hagler took it easy on him....then I would say hagler was a trained proffessinal boxer who if was given the opportunity would finish you and leave you beaten on the floor....For me its down to the fact that Duran was very crafty and a brilliant inside fighter and hagler was wary to commit himself because Duran was nailing him......with weight ..When they were both 18 Duran was 128lb and hagler was 160lb ...that's a massive amount of natural strength advantage and I will always consider it a more amazing achievement for a boxer to go all them weights and still manage to be on top....it cant be denied in my eyes.....it's like Harry greb going up all the way to face gene Tunney and still beating him....it's amazing in my eyes.....I boxed and I know what it's like to go up 5 kilos to face other fighters it's harder and some went up 12 kilos...your right when you say about hagler and Leonard's speed, counter punching and movement would be another factor if they had boxed in the early 80's and your also right that the fight would always be close and competitive because there both great fighters...I am a purist and always thought Leonard had to much speed and movement for him but I wouldn't put my house in it......it's my personal opinion that a fighter who moves up in weight and can still be the best should rank higher than fighter who don't

[joseph5620]

obviously u misread it or misunderstood the whole debate.....leonard did clean out the welterweights before he went north of the division and even my own views would be that a boxer must control the divsions he is in before proving in higher weight classes ....this also applies to duran who cleaned out his division before he went to the welterweight divison ..if a fighter wants to carry on in a divsion after he has cleaned it out and there are other challenges beyond that weight then the boxer who takes that gamble in my eyes is greater fighter than the boxer who remains in the divsion and defend against mediocre challengers.....duran and leonard would not have the same reputation and status if duran had not beat leonard or leonard beat a kalule or hagler....that's a fact

Duran and Leonard's career and status goes far beyond Kalule and Hagler. Duran established his reputation long before the Leonard fights. That's just stupid.