Why do people like Roberto Duran

[DJ Enerate]

You keep referring to Duran as a natural lightweight, but he moved because he could no longer safely make that weight. When Duran fought Leonard, he was at that point a natural welterweight still in his prime. You don't hear people call Mayweather and De La Hoya "natural lightweights" when discussing their higher weight achievements, because that would be false too.

Duran started out as a skinny Bantamweight. Of course he was a natural lightweight at his peak, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

[Ray Corso]

The expression "natural" for maintaining a certain weight in boxing is for a fighter who easily maintains said weight!
Hagler was a natural middleweight starting there and ending there without any issues making weight.
Hearns, Leonard, Duran & Benitez after a certain amount of maturity could no longer make the weights they were first noted for.
Most fighters reaching 30 years old can struggle with maintaining a weight they've averaged for years. It's a progression that most people deal with in their lives and most fighters are no different.
Mike Spinks left 175 because it became difficult to make, training for that weight began to weaken him through camp.
A good example today is GGG who is a natural middleweight and has been able to maintain the middleweight limit with very little sacrifices. He is a not a big middleweight (5' 9-10") not particularly thick or heavy boned. At 32 yrs he seems to have no issues with weight.

Benitez, Leonard at 5'10" out grew welter with Duran at 5'7" but thick and wide shouldered for his height actually bringing his lightweight skills with him at welter. Hearns at 6'1" looses some of his power after 154lbs. plus the men being physically stronger at 160+ than 147.

Mayweather at 35yrs old could easily make 140 and be considered a natural weight for his age. He started his successes at 130! At 5' 7 1/2" he is not heavy boned or thick so I do not consider him a natural at welter, especially with his limited power at 147.

Ray

[Scott9945]

Duran started out as a skinny Bantamweight. Of course he was a natural lightweight at his peak, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

He was still at his peak when he could no longer make 135 and moved up to welter. He never would have beaten a prime Ray Leonard if he wasn't. Why do Duran fans always get so hypersensitive about this? A fighter's peak can cover more than one weight class.

[joseph5620]

He was still at his peak when he could no longer make 135 and moved up to welter. He never would have beaten a prime Ray Leonard if he wasn't. Why do Duran fans always get so hypersensitive about this? A fighter's peak can cover more than one weight class.

I've been reading a lot of post like that lately. It's as if a fighter can never outgrow a weight class.


To continue calling Duran a "lightweight" after he moved up is ridiculous. The same with considering Hearns a "natural welterweight" after he moved up in weight.


If the weight was "natural" for them they never would have moved up. Duran didn't look any differemt from his peak when he beat both Palomino and Leonard at 147. He was clearly still in his prime.

[Scott9945]

I've been reading a lot of post like that lately. It's as if a fighter can never outgrow a weight class.


To continue calling Duran a "lightweight" after he moved up is ridiculous. The same with considering Hearns a "natural welterweight" after he moved up in weight.


If the weight was "natural" for them they never would have moved up. Duran didn't look any differemt from his peak when he beat both Palomino and Leonard at 147. He was clearly still in his prime.

Anyone who looks at Hearns in a middleweight fight and claims he is above his best weight is either blind or hopelessly biased. Hearns still looked big fighting at 175+. It was amazing that he was a welterweight as long as he was.

[The plunger man]

Anyone who looks at Hearns in a middleweight fight and claims he is above his best weight is either blind or hopelessly biased. Hearns still looked big fighting at 175+. It was amazing that he was a welterweight as long as he was.

Hearns carried the weight because of his height and reach.....but even at middlweight he was getting hurt on a regular basis...roldan almost stopped him, kitchen dropped him...Barkley koed him...so to say he was at his most optimum weight as middlweight is wrong...his core strength was weak.....in a war of attrition he faded very quicky if he couldn't stop you before...hearns most dominat weight was weltwerweight and jnr middlweight and his performances prove that.....koed cuevas and simply destroyed every fighter he faced besides leonard and was 32-0 and 30 kos ....then moved up koed duran ....middlweight he was able to win because of his size and reach but he became very vulnerable as he moved up in weight....ranking someone in there prime is when there at there most optimum best and it's on record that hearns was his most devastating at jnr middleweight or welter.....it's gonna be pretty similar when amir khan faces canelo...he has the height and reach but as soon as it comes down to attrition and in the trenches he will get stopped.......and thats not a sign of your prime weight....u cannot add strength to your core just by gaining weight....a prime weight is when you are at your fighting best......hearns could have stayed at jnr middlweight but it was actually his inner warrior that he moved up to face hagler..hagler in 1985 was the man to beat..hearns faced hagler because he presented a challenge...competitive nature.....hagler didn't fancy going up to fight a dwight braxton or Michael spinks who on 3 occasions called hagler out....duran was the same the big money was leonard and he actually leaped straight over light welterweight to face leonard ...some fighters are happy staying in one division and controlling others want to beat records and gain belts.....

[The plunger man]

The expression "natural" for maintaining a certain weight in boxing is for a fighter who easily maintains said weight!
Hagler was a natural middleweight starting there and ending there without any issues making weight.
Hearns, Leonard, Duran & Benitez after a certain amount of maturity could no longer make the weights they were first noted for.
Most fighters reaching 30 years old can struggle with maintaining a weight they've averaged for years. It's a progression that most people deal with in their lives and most fighters are no different.
Mike Spinks left 175 because it became difficult to make, training for that weight began to weaken him through camp.
A good example today is GGG who is a natural middleweight and has been able to maintain the middleweight limit with very little sacrifices. He is a not a big middleweight (5' 9-10") not particularly thick or heavy boned. At 32 yrs he seems to have no issues with weight.

Benitez, Leonard at 5'10" out grew welter with Duran at 5'7" but thick and wide shouldered for his height actually bringing his lightweight skills with him at welter. Hearns at 6'1" looses some of his power after 154lbs. plus the men being physically stronger at 160+ than 147.

Mayweather at 35yrs old could easily make 140 and be considered a natural weight for his age. He started his successes at 130! At 5' 7 1/2" he is not heavy boned or thick so I do not consider him a natural at welter, especially with his limited power at 147.

Ray

Ray that's wrong fella...leonard was a true welterweight as well.....weighed 146 for hearns and his last fight against finch before his eye injury stopped his career....2 years later when he faced Kevin Howard he weighed 149lb and considering he was out the ring for over 2 years shows that he would have had no problem maintaining that weight and stay in the welterweight division....for over a year before he signed for hagler...he was building his frame up....doing weights and bulking up to become heavier and add core strength ....even at 35 when facing Norris after being retired for another 2 years he was just 154lbs....hagler knew the big pay days came from the durans,hearns and Leonard's who were lighter and less risk than rather gain 10lbs and face a very dangerous Michael spinks who was the dominant champion at light heavyweight

[Ray Corso]

steveplunger;..... "less risk than rather gain 10lbs and face a very dangerous Michael spinks who was the dominant champion at lightheavy"

Gain 10 lbs??? Seriously? 160 to 175 is 15 pounds.
Spinks the night of his fights could easily hit the ring at 185lbs.
Hagler never gained more than 6 to 8 pounds fight night!
Spinks is one of the best punchers in light heavy history so you think it's a "challenge" to give away close to 20lbs to an ATG 175lb puncher?
Glad your not a manager you'd get fighters in some very bad business situations.

Your welcomed to your opinion of what went on then but I was very active in boxing at that time and probably have a lot more insight on these men then you do, ya think?

Everyone including Hagler knew Leonard put himself on hold and watched Hagler fight on and add years on his body. Power and hands don't leave veterans but your steps get slower and reactions too. Thats how Leonard out scored Hagler and some nice "track techniques" too!
It was a big deal for a welter king to challenge the middle king just as the real Sugar Ray did years before except Leonard waited years before he challenged. Don't give the eye routine because he could have challenged and got the fight with Hagler anytime he wanted.

Leonard learned from his early management that patience is a virtue in boxing. He fought very easy competition early in his career after he fought top notch amateurs for years! He trained at my gym for his 8th or 9th fight at the New Haven Col. when he fought a retired super feather/lightweight who just got his nose fixed 6 months prior to the fight hahaha guess what happened?

Hagler in his prime beats Leonard the same way Duran did! Pressure and a two handed attack. Their size was very even and body strength too a big difference was that Hagler could cut the ring down very well and lateral moves were a big part of Leonard's offense.
it would be close like their bout actually was but Hagler would have the edge that Leonard had as older fighters! That's just my opinion, been on fight cards with both of them a few times. I'm basing my opinion on what I've seen in person with the main edge going to Hagler's pain tolerances and determination.

enough of this it gets old after the 5th post!

nite boys Ray

[Scott9945]

Hearns carried the weight because of his height and reach.....but even at middlweight he was getting hurt on a regular basis...roldan almost stopped him, kitchen dropped him...Barkley koed him...so to say he was at his most optimum weight as middlweight is wrong...his core strength was weak.....in a war of attrition he faded very quicky if he couldn't stop you before...hearns most dominat weight was weltwerweight and jnr middlweight and his performances prove that.....koed cuevas and simply destroyed every fighter he faced besides leonard and was 32-0 and 30 kos ....then moved up koed duran ....middlweight he was able to win because of his size and reach but he became very vulnerable as he moved up in weight....ranking someone in there prime is when there at there most optimum best and it's on record that hearns was his most devastating at jnr middleweight or welter.....it's gonna be pretty similar when amir khan faces canelo...he has the height and reach but as soon as it comes down to attrition and in the trenches he will get stopped.......and thats not a sign of your prime weight....u cannot add strength to your core just by gaining weight....a prime weight is when you are at your fighting best......hearns could have stayed at jnr middlweight but it was actually his inner warrior that he moved up to face hagler..hagler in 1985 was the man to beat..hearns faced hagler because he presented a challenge...competitive nature.....hagler didn't fancy going up to fight a dwight braxton or Michael spinks who on 3 occasions called hagler out....duran was the same the big money was leonard and he actually leaped straight over light welterweight to face leonard ...some fighters are happy staying in one division and controlling others want to beat records and gain belts.....

Hearns was a big man, not just in height and reach. He had massive shoulders and was a large middleweight, certainly much bigger than Amir Khan. His last welterweight fight was at age 22, which is very young for a fighter at the highest level. He went from 154 to 160 because there was more money there, and he likely had to struggle to make weight.

Tommy's chin was ordinary at best and his long legs were shaky. He was able to disguise that against less talented smaller fighters (but not Leonard). Hagler not moving up was entirely different as Marvin was a compact 5'9 with an ideal build for middleweight. Spinks was a huge lightheavy and that was a major weight jump. You seem to be very impressed by how many weight classes a fighter moves up, while I'm more focused on actual achievements.

[The plunger man]

Hearns was a big man, not just in height and reach. He had massive shoulders and was a large middleweight, certainly much bigger than Amir Khan. His last welterweight fight was at age 22, which is very young for a fighter at the highest level. He went from 154 to 160 because there was more money there, and he likely had to struggle to make weight.

Tommy's chin was ordinary at best and his long legs were shaky. He was able to disguise that against less talented smaller fighters (but not Leonard). Hagler not moving up was entirely different as Marvin was a compact 5'9 with an ideal build for middleweight. Spinks was a huge lightheavy and that was a major weight jump. You seem to be very impressed by how many weight classes a fighter moves up, while I'm more focused on actual achievements.

What exactly are the achievements of marvin hagler....it was a weak era for middleweights with his defences.....his 4 most notable defences were all against smaller fighters....duran,hearns,mugabi and leonard...besides that there was caveman lee,Wilfred scypion,fulgencio obelmejias, juan roldan,sibson and a few others..so what achievements are we talking about fella, haglers legacy is basically built on fighters that travelled up through weight to face him...and seeing I am quite opinionated on divisions and there merit...without those 4 who did go up weight divisons haglers legacy would be shallow and without one ATG ...now let's add the loss with willie Monroe, the draw with sugar ray seals and antuofermo...well hagler was a huge middlweight compared to duran in reality.....a man who started his pro career at 128lbs facing a fighter who even as an amatuer was a 160lber....there are very few fighters that have achieved ATG by remaining in one class.....I dare you to find five fighters that are true ATG that did not go up divsions....another buddy I was not comparing amir to hearns body size I am comparing the travelling up in weight and losing the power to stay with bigger fighters....Khan was a lightweight and he has moved now to his middlweight fight with canelo that's 5 divisons....hearns was a weltwerweight and moved up to cruiserweight that's 6 divisions.....hearns had no power at that weight and pretty much faced journeyman or lower ranked fighters ....if he had faced an Evander holyfield or even a David haye he would have been brutally knocked out.....as I said before hearns lacked the core strength to even be at lightheavyweigh...I suggest u watch the Delgado fight to see this...I'm not downplaying hagler and he was a monster and during his time he so dominant ....but to say all the fighters who went up through the weights matched his physical strength is utter bollocks....that's how he beat hearns because he just had to much strength and conditioning and walked through everything hearns threw at him.....dwight braxton was only 5'7 and he was a light heavyweight so that's the size theory out the way....also leonard faced donny lalonde and he was 168 and 6ft 2... And he was a midget compared to him and actually weighed in with coins in his pocket....I await the five ATG that stayed in one divsion