Why do people like Roberto Duran

[The plunger man]

steveplunger;..... "less risk than rather gain 10lbs and face a very dangerous Michael spinks who was the dominant champion at lightheavy"

Gain 10 lbs??? Seriously? 160 to 175 is 15 pounds.
Spinks the night of his fights could easily hit the ring at 185lbs.
Hagler never gained more than 6 to 8 pounds fight night!
Spinks is one of the best punchers in light heavy history so you think it's a "challenge" to give away close to 20lbs to an ATG 175lb puncher?
Glad your not a manager you'd get fighters in some very bad business situations.

Your welcomed to your opinion of what went on then but I was very active in boxing at that time and probably have a lot more insight on these men then you do, ya think?

Everyone including Hagler knew Leonard put himself on hold and watched Hagler fight on and add years on his body. Power and hands don't leave veterans but your steps get slower and reactions too. Thats how Leonard out scored Hagler and some nice "track techniques" too!
It was a big deal for a welter king to challenge the middle king just as the real Sugar Ray did years before except Leonard waited years before he challenged. Don't give the eye routine because he could have challenged and got the fight with Hagler anytime he wanted.

Leonard learned from his early management that patience is a virtue in boxing. He fought very easy competition early in his career after he fought top notch amateurs for years! He trained at my gym for his 8th or 9th fight at the New Haven Col. when he fought a retired super feather/lightweight who just got his nose fixed 6 months prior to the fight hahaha guess what happened?

Hagler in his prime beats Leonard the same way Duran did! Pressure and a two handed attack. Their size was very even and body strength too a big difference was that Hagler could cut the ring down very well and lateral moves were a big part of Leonard's offense.
it would be close like their bout actually was but Hagler would have the edge that Leonard had as older fighters! That's just my opinion, been on fight cards with both of them a few times. I'm basing my opinion on what I've seen in person with the main edge going to Hagler's pain tolerances and determination.

enough of this it gets old after the 5th post!

nite boys Ray

I was giving an example of going up 10lbs...I know it's 15lbs ..hagler probably couldn't gain 15lb with out affecting him.....leonard moved 13lbs to face hagler so what the difference....147 to 160....yiu just practically said the body strenght would be too much...so that's my point.. A natural weight size makes a big difference....now I don't know who you are as its a forum you could be who you say you and u might just be someone who talks a good game..who knows......now a fighter that's been active and is naturally heavier than a fighter who has not competed for over 3 years will always have the advantage period....how many comebacks have failed Ray ? Almost every one in history ...I don't know what would have happened in 1982 and not do you....Al I saw ws duran take hagler the full 15 after duran had dropped down to an all time low with Jimmy batten and kirland Laing and yet he still pushed hagler all the way...duran said leonard could beat him...so did Marcos Geraldo and hearrns and I would much rather take notice from duran or hearns than a guy who is posting on a forum..respectively...now if leonard was a natural middleweight the same as hagler who would have won in your eyes ? Steve

[Scott9945]

I await the five ATG that stayed in one divsion

Let me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.

Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti

Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.

[The plunger man]

Let me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.

Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti

Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.

Benny Leonard started his pro career at 129lbs his last pro fight was 151lbs..that's 22lbs
Willie pep started as low as 123lbs and boxed at the top end of 138lbs
Lou ambers boxed at 131lbs but also weighed above the 140lbs on five separate occasions as was as high as 145 that's welterweight
Carlos monzon half his fights there's no weight recorded so we don't know what he weighed at the start of his career but he also boxed above the middlweight limit on 4 occasions
Nino benvenuti won world titles at super welterweight and middlweight so he never stayed in the same division ...
I know I used boxrec because I wanted to check the weights...not one fighter there u mentioned has remained in one weight class like hagler...

I await your response ....Carlos monzon is the nearest to remaining true to one division in your list but he still competed in other divisions

[The plunger man]

Let me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.

Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti

Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.

As I said before monzon is probably identical to hagler in the fact he pretty much bordered on 160 all his career...up to 162 even....most great fighter have moved up in weight and won titles in different divisions and to me that's much more impressive when you beat a guy who is heavier ...considered almost unbeatable ....and that little tiny guy beats him...that's my opinion and you will never find boxers who are recognised hall of famers who solely stayed in one weight class....you might find 20 random boxers but not legends

[Scott9945]

Benny Leonard started his pro career at 129lbs his last pro fight was 151lbs..that's 22lbs
Willie pep started as low as 123lbs and boxed at the top end of 138lbs
Lou ambers boxed at 131lbs but also weighed above the 140lbs on five separate occasions as was as high as 145 that's welterweight
Carlos monzon half his fights there's no weight recorded so we don't know what he weighed at the start of his career but he also boxed above the middlweight limit on 4 occasions
Nino benvenuti won world titles at super welterweight and middlweight so he never stayed in the same division ...
I know I used boxrec because I wanted to check the weights...not one fighter there u mentioned has remained in one weight class like hagler...

I await your response ....Carlos monzon is the nearest to remaining true to one division in your list but he still competed in other divisions

You're just manipulating statistics to try and make your point. Leonard was a teenager when he fought at those low weights. Clearly his entire prime was as a lightweight. I already explained that the higher weight fights were after a 7 year layoff. What about that is difficult to understand?

As for Pep, 123 is a featherweight. Those higher weight fights were meaningless non title fights when he was in his 40's. This is called keeping things in context.

So what other divisions did Monzon fight in? Was he a lightheavy when he fought a non title fight at 162? If you can't find the official weights for his fights, you can't just presume he was heavier.

If you're looking for fighters who fought at almost exactly the same weight their entire careers, then you're being unreasonable and I'm done with this.

[The plunger man]

You're just manipulating statistics to try and make your point. Leonard was a teenager when he fought at those low weights. Clearly his entire prime was as a lightweight. I already explained that the higher weight fights were after a 7 year layoff. What about that is difficult to understand?

As for Pep, 123 is a featherweight. Those higher weight fights were meaningless non title fights when he was in his 40's. This is called keeping things in context.

So what other divisions did Monzon fight in? Was he a lightheavy when he fought a non title fight at 162? If you can't find the official weights for his fights, you can't just presume he was heavier.

If you're looking for fighters who fought at almost exactly the same weight their entire careers, then you're being unreasonable and I'm done with this.

As I said before monzon was almost exactly the same as hagler in terms of weight....Nino benvenuti was a complete error on your part as he won two titles in 2 weight classes....at the age 18 hagler was 160lber till he was 32 years of age ..
I did say to you fighters that competed in other divisions Scott ...u can't pick and choose because of age and weight because at the end of the day they did compete in higher divisions.
Look I'm not here to have an argument with you I'm saying a fighter that travels up in weight and wins world titles against bigger stronger fighters is a bigger achievement than a guy who fights in his own class and never tests himself....sorry fella but monzon and hagler are the only boxers that I know who started there pro careers at 160 and finished at 160 and that was the discussion......and benny Leonard and willie pep competed in higher divisions and if they had got to a position of a world title and won it...then it's no different.....I've already given you monzon and that's only one true example of what we're discussing .....now let me ask you a question ...do you consider Duran a better p4p fighter than hagler or not and do you rank him higher on the all time list ? I do and I know you do as well...why because he was 130lb fighter who beat champions up to 160lbs that's why and that's always been my argument.... I don't say hagler is not great I just think the likes of Duran,Leonard are greater ....don't get stressed lol

[The plunger man]

Let me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.

Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti

Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.

Benny Leonard also boxed for the world welterweight title against Jack Britton but lost by DQ and he weighed only 139 and half pound so even he tested himself against a naturally bigger fighter and competed in another division and he was only 26 as well.....the other guy on here tried to pick my comments apart because I forgot Pernell Whitaker won 4 world titles....we all have opinions on what we consider are attributes for ranking fighters p4p in history.....this conversation stops now because we both have our opinions

[Scott9945]

As I said before monzon was almost exactly the same as hagler in terms of weight....Nino benvenuti was a complete error on your part as he won two titles in 2 weight classes....at the age 18 hagler was 160lber till he was 32 years of age ..
I did say to you fighters that competed in other divisions Scott ...u can't pick and choose because of age and weight because at the end of the day they did compete in higher divisions.
Look I'm not here to have an argument with you I'm saying a fighter that travels up in weight and wins world titles against bigger stronger fighters is a bigger achievement than a guy who fights in his own class and never tests himself....sorry fella but monzon and hagler are the only boxers that I know who started there pro careers at 160 and finished at 160 and that was the discussion......and benny Leonard and willie pep competed in higher divisions and if they had got to a position of a world title and won it...then it's no different.....I've already given you monzon and that's only one true example of what we're discussing .....now let me ask you a question ...do you consider Duran a better p4p fighter than hagler or not and do you rank him higher on the all time list ? I do and I know you do as well...why because he was 130lb fighter who beat champions up to 160lbs that's why and that's always been my argument.... I don't say hagler is not great I just think the likes of Duran,Leonard are greater ....don't get stressed lol

I don't rate fighters P4P because I think it is far too subjective. But if I did I'd probably have Duran higher. It's funny how you nitpick me on petty details, then call Duran a "130lb fighter", which we all know is inaccurate. Yeah poor little Duran, too small for Hagler, yet he ended up beating a much bigger middleweight at an older age. Says something about Hagler's greatness, even though that was a subpar performance for him.

You're more impressed with fighters who move up in weight classes than I am. Lets leave it at that.

[The plunger man]

I don't rate fighters P4P because I think it is far too subjective. But if I did I'd probably have Duran higher. It's funny how you nitpick me on petty details, then call Duran a "130lb fighter", which we all know is inaccurate. Yeah poor little Duran, too small for Hagler, yet he ended up beating a much bigger middleweight at an older age. Says something about Hagler's greatness, even though that was a subpar performance for him.

You're more impressed with fighters who move up in weight classes than I am. Lets leave it at that.

Iran Barkley is never a marvin hagler...we both know that.....and I apologise about Duran being 130....we can both agree that Durans optimum weight was probably no more than 147...it's just a testament to Durans skill and durability that he could compete at middleweight......I regard Duran as an incredible fighter...and was it an off night for hagler not sure about that because up until that time hagler had never faced anybody as near to Duran in terms of inside and slipping punches....not many people can dominate Duran inside no matter who they are...hearns did it from range not close in

[soul_survivor]

There's a lot of reasons, he has a fun style, he was a crazy mf, he fought much bigger guys and at times, when fully switched on, beat them and objectively speaking, he is a top 10 or 20 ATG.

On a personal level, when he quit against Leonard...well that's something that should not be easily overlooked. Plus, he lost to the best fighters of his generation, however, it is also important to note some of his best wins and the fact that he held a portion of the MW crown, and standing at 5'6'', that's some achievement. Today you have bigger welters who don't even wana fight weak title holders at the weight.