James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[Rockin']

Well thats James fault isn't it? .

I always placed blame on the guy who sets the bucket up on the ring, for James to spit in, for his weight issues.

And Kostya Tszyu was a baaaad little man in that ring.........

[billeau2]

I always placed blame on the guy who sets the bucket up on the ring, for James to spit in, for his weight issues.

And Kostya Tszyu was a baaaad little man in that ring.........

Nahhh if you look at Toney's face his eyes are very close together...when most of us get a look at the buffet we see the celery sticks and day old mac salad...James has tunnel vision and only sees the good stuff!

[IronDanHamza]

From our very own History forum:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14719293#post14719293

And no offense to those posters as they are entitled to their opinion. Even if I disagree.

But this is just a sample of what is a very common view of Tszyu among boxing fans in my experience. They rate him far more highly than I think is warranted.

I've seen that said.

I don't recall seeing someone call him an ATG.

[sonnyboyx2]

The people you named are not great fighters.

The fact you've put Jimmy Wilde amongst Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard and Evander Holyfield's names is sad.

LOL...would the boxing historians at the IBHOF say the same as you ?.. you don't have a clue what your talking about most of the time. "James Toney the most overrated fighter of the 90s" - Along with your Jimmy Wilde comments, says it all about you.

Name me another fighter with a record of 132-3-1 (99) with 2 of those losses coming in his last two fights?

Name me a fighter who is universally recognized, as the best ever in his weight class 100yrs after he reigned? ....

Other than Jimmy Wilde and Ray Robinson, there is no other fighter universally accepted, as "The Best Ever" in their weight class. Every other fighter who ever lived, their place and standing are debatable.

[BennyST]

From our very own History forum:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14719293#post14719293

And no offense to those posters as they are entitled to their opinion. Even if I disagree.

But this is just a sample of what is a very common view of Tszyu among boxing fans in my experience. They rate him far more highly than I think is warranted.

Where would you have him rated at 140? Like I said, there are a lot of great fighters there and a lot that passed through, but Tszyu spent his entire career there unlike many and his accomplishments at 140 are greater than many better fighters that just used it as a stepping stone. I certainly don't think he's the best 140 ever. Not even close, but I think he could arguably be a top 5 guy, though I wouldn't think anything of people having him anywhere from 5-10 or something.

Name five absolute certainties that you would you have above him at 140.

[BennyST]

Yeah, I think I see the problem.

Tszyu is not an ATG. He's one of the top fighters at 140 historically, simply for his career accomplishments there and it not being an original division, but that doesn't make him an ATG.

He's a guy that I think of as a HOF entrant based on those accomplishments at best, but certainly no more. Tszyu and his ilk should be the cut off point for HOFers in my opinion.

I doubt there's many, if any, that say he's the best 140 pounder ever though. Not with Chavez, Pryor, Locche, Cervantes, there. From there though, I can't think of a single fighter that you could clearly rate above him.

There's a lot that sit around there, but none of them are clearly more accomplished whereas I believe there's a strong case for Tszyu being above those behind him.

Barney Ross
Duilo Loi
Jackie Berg
Canzoneri
Hatton

Then further Ortiz, Benitez, Taylor etc.

Many of them greater fighters, yes. More accomplished at 140 though, no. The only reason Ross isn't above him is that he spent half his career at 147. Ross was a beast though and I wouldn't think much of anyone having him above Tszyu!

[Elroy1]

Yeah, I think I see the problem.

Tszyu is not an ATG. He's one of the top fighters at 140 historically, simply for his career accomplishments there and it not being an original division, but that doesn't make him an ATG.

He's a guy that I think of as a HOF entrant based on those accomplishments at best, but certainly no more. Tszyu and his ilk should be the cut off point for HOFers in my opinion.

I doubt there's many, if any, that say he's the best 140 pounder ever though. Not with Chavez, Pryor, Locche, Cervantes, there. From there though, I can't think of a single fighter that you could clearly rate above him.

There's a lot that sit around there, but none of them are clearly more accomplished whereas I believe there's a strong case for Tszyu being above those behind him.

Barney Ross
Duilo Loi
Jackie Berg
Canzoneri
Hatton

Then further Ortiz, Benitez, Taylor etc.

Many of them greater fighters, yes. More accomplished at 140 though, no. The only reason Ross isn't above him is that he spent half his career at 147. Ross was a beast though and I wouldn't think much of anyone having him above Tszyu!

As if Kostya Tszyu would not have whipped those guys at 140.

IF Tszyu can't cut it as an ATG, that just serves to show how obsolete the notion of an ATG really is.

[IronDanHamza]

LOL...would the boxing historians at the IBHOF say the same as you ?.. you don't have a clue what your talking about most of the time. "James Toney the most overrated fighter of the 90s" - Along with your Jimmy Wilde comments, says it all about you.

Name me another fighter with a record of 132-3-1 (99) with 2 of those losses coming in his last two fights?

Name me a fighter who is universally recognized, as the best ever in his weight class 100yrs after he reigned? ....

Other than Jimmy Wilde and Ray Robinson, there is no other fighter universally accepted, as "The Best Ever" in their weight class. Every other fighter who ever lived, their place and standing are debatable.

I don't know if they would nor do I care. I'm sure there's things historians say that you disagree with.

Canto is the greatest Flyweight for my money.

You're attempts at rebuttal in the James Toney thread were poor to say the least. You brought absolutely nothing to the table other than "James Toney dominated Mike McCallum in the second fight" which again is one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen.

[sonnyboyx2]

I don't know if they would nor do I care. I'm sure there's things historians say that you disagree with.

Canto is the greatest Flyweight for my money.

You're attempts at rebuttal in the James Toney thread were poor to say the least. You brought absolutely nothing to the table other than "James Toney dominated Mike McCallum in the second fight" which again is one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen.

I brought quite a lot to the table, However what was the point, when you used yourself as Judge & Jury and had already found the guy guilty before the trial.

You made excuse after excuse, then more excuses. his knock outs were meaningless, his comebacks were meaningless, his heavyweight achievements were meaningless. The judges were wrong, the judges were wrong again. He tested positive, His opponent was past it, he never won coz i had the other guy winning etc etc.

James Toney was voted Fighter of the Year TWICE in the 90s..He won world titles in 3 weight divisions and campaigned successfully in 5 weight divisions. He defeated 10 world champions.. Yet you claim he is the most overrated of ALL FIGHTERS who fought during the 1990-2000 period

You then say, "I brought absolutely nothing to the debate table"

[Anthony342]

What was the point, when you used yourself as Judge & Jury and had already found the guy guilty before the trial?

You made excuse after excuse, then more excuses. his knock outs were meaningless, his comebacks were meaningless, his heavyweight achievements were meaningless. The judges were wrong, the judges were wrong again. He tested positive, His opponent was past it, he never won coz i had the other guy winning etc etc.

Yeah, kind of like you do when it comes to Lennox Lewis or Marvin Hagler. And then refuse to acknowledge any links proving you wrong because you were there, so only your interpretation counts.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.