James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[billeau2]

Merqui Sosa is easy to counter yet Toney had his hands full with him.

Sosa actually reminds me of Froch (a poor version)

So if we're saying "Ward beat Froch therefore Toney dominated and Sparks Froch in 7" then what about "Toney had his hands full with Sosa so Froch might have a chance?"

We are using Ward as a measuring stick for this, when Ward is a better fighter than Toney IMO.

Why can't we use Dave Tiberi, Merqui Sosa or Drake Thadzi as a measuring stick? All 3 worse than Froch, by the way.

Ill watch his fights against Thadzi and Tiberi...I can't comment on those fights. I do think that there are several possabilities. Assuming these guys fight like Froch then there could be an anomolie, or a fight where Toney does a bad job...Toney fought a lot and assuming these opponents were similar to Froch, if he generally did well against a type of opponent and didn't in certain fights, or didn't do as well as he should in a fight, or two, this would not explain away his advantage against this type of opponent in general. But I will watch those fights because I might concede this point if all three of these guys were very similar to Froch and Toney had problems with them...I will also rewatch the Sosa fight...I remember it a certain way.

Ward may be better than Toney, or not, but he is an accurate puncher who can counter punch and is not immeasurably better than Toney at these skills. Certainly Ward moves better in big spaces, i.e. his feet are faster...your comment about toney not doing so I agree with. But Froch came to trade and this is where the advantage would show itself. But yeah I am using Ward as measuring stick...just not exclusively because of his calibre compared to Toney, which is debatable...imo I have not really thought about it enough to determine who I think is better btw. But Given some of the things you mention regarding Toney, it would be hard to overlook Ward's performance against top guys in his division...and out!

[billeau2]

Merqui Sosa is easy to counter yet Toney had his hands full with him.

Sosa actually reminds me of Froch (a poor version)

So if we're saying "Ward beat Froch therefore Toney dominated and Sparks Froch in 7" then what about "Toney had his hands full with Sosa so Froch might have a chance?"

We are using Ward as a measuring stick for this, when Ward is a better fighter than Toney IMO.

Why can't we use Dave Tiberi, Merqui Sosa or Drake Thadzi as a measuring stick? All 3 worse than Froch, by the way.

Ok so while cleaning up after dinner watched the Tiberi and Thadzi and rewatched the Sosa...

I don't follow your logic on Sosa. Toney knocked him down (thats why I had to think if I was thinking of the same fight actually) and not only was it a counter punch, but he bested him easily. Sosa is an ackward fighter, reminds me of the Columbian guy who looks like a bobble doll that Hatton pasted, Carlos Maussa...Toney could have looked better but the guy is akward and hard to look good against realistically. I don't see any relation to Froch either frankly.

Thadzi was an interesting fight. Again not sure what the relationship would be to Froch..yes the guy pressed but he was very big and really came inside as a matter of fact he missed a lot...yes he outworked Toney but it was size, and a lot more size than Froch would bring. Toney did do a bad job but was still accurate for what its worth!

Now...lets talk Tiberi because you make a good point imo with this fight. Toney was obviously sub par but, if he showed up sub par and Froch beat him...oh well. Tiberi was indeed succesful the way Froch would be. he was very active, he fought at a distance where he could land shots...Froch likes to be in a place where he can punch, not necessarily smother...and Tiberi did hurt Toney by pressing, beating him to the punch...Notice that with Tiberi unlike with Thadzi, it was not his size and smother distance, it was simply punching when Toney wasn't and beating Toney to the punch...something froch does quite a bit. Toney only can fight well backwards when he can set up for a counter, he does not like to be pushed back, past where he can be profile (sideways) and use his hips and shoulders to set up his counters. This guy just simply never let Toney set his feet, and Toney looked to be out of condition, frustrated by Tiberi.

So, could this fight be an anomolie? or did it show the possability that a tough, presser, with good punch power and persistance might give toney problems? I don't know but its a possability imo. The final thing i would say on this is that unlike Thadzi who did not really land on Toney...and who did get hit by Toney a lot actually, Tiberi was effective against toney and hit him with some decent shots.

[dan_cov]

Good debating from both sides, decent read. 5 star

[Suckmedry]

Lol. IronDanHandJob is on some **** in this thread.

He cant seem to grasp the fact that the Toney who lost to Tiberi and Thadzi was poorly prepared, weight drained, and badly motivated. Lots of good boxers fight to the level of comp they are facing. If Handjob had ever boxed he would know that.

I just cant stop LOLing about him thinking Froch beats Toney. Slow, wide swinging Carl Froch ffs. Toney eats guys like that for breakfast.

And playing down Toney's annihilation of Barkely. As far as I'm concerned, 2 wins over Tommy Hearns is a hell of a lot better than anything Froch ever did. Plus a close fight with a still very good Roberto Duran.

[IronDanHamza]

Ok so while cleaning up after dinner watched the Tiberi and Thadzi and rewatched the Sosa...

I don't follow your logic on Sosa. Toney knocked him down (thats why I had to think if I was thinking of the same fight actually) and not only was it a counter punch, but he bested him easily. Sosa is an ackward fighter, reminds me of the Columbian guy who looks like a bobble doll that Hatton pasted, Carlos Maussa...Toney could have looked better but the guy is akward and hard to look good against realistically. I don't see any relation to Froch either frankly.

Thadzi was an interesting fight. Again not sure what the relationship would be to Froch..yes the guy pressed but he was very big and really came inside as a matter of fact he missed a lot...yes he outworked Toney but it was size, and a lot more size than Froch would bring. Toney did do a bad job but was still accurate for what its worth!

Now...lets talk Tiberi because you make a good point imo with this fight. Toney was obviously sub par but, if he showed up sub par and Froch beat him...oh well. Tiberi was indeed succesful the way Froch would be. he was very active, he fought at a distance where he could land shots...Froch likes to be in a place where he can punch, not necessarily smother...and Tiberi did hurt Toney by pressing, beating him to the punch...Notice that with Tiberi unlike with Thadzi, it was not his size and smother distance, it was simply punching when Toney wasn't and beating Toney to the punch...something froch does quite a bit. Toney only can fight well backwards when he can set up for a counter, he does not like to be pushed back, past where he can be profile (sideways) and use his hips and shoulders to set up his counters. This guy just simply never let Toney set his feet, and Toney looked to be out of condition, frustrated by Tiberi.

So, could this fight be an anomolie? or did it show the possability that a tough, presser, with good punch power and persistance might give toney problems? I don't know but its a possability imo. The final thing i would say on this is that unlike Thadzi who did not really land on Toney...and who did get hit by Toney a lot actually, Tiberi was effective against toney and hit him with some decent shots.

I didn't say the fight alike (other than Sosa to a degree)

Just like Ward fights nothing like Toney and you've based your prediction off that fight with Froch.

My point was Tiberi and Thadzi beat Toney clearly. Tiberi with relative ease.

Sosa didn't beat Toney but he did trouble him down the stretch.

So what's the difference?

They say Toney was in shape at MW, well Tiberi was a MW fight.

There all brought elements to how Froch could have success. Just like "Toney would destroy Froch because Ward out boxed Froch" Ward is a consistent boxer, Toney isn't. Toney allowed himself to be out worked on many occasions, Ward doesn't. It's apples and oranges with those two.

Again Froch doesn't particularly fight like the 3 I mentioned but I am just using the same logic.

There's nothing to suggest Froch gets wiped out in 7 rounds by Toney. Nothing at all and there's ample reasons to think otherwise but like I said I understand Toney is a mixture of Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones and Ray Robinson when it comes to fantasy fights.

[IronDanHamza]

Lol. IronDanHandJob is on some **** in this thread.

He cant seem to grasp the fact that the Toney who lost to Tiberi and Thadzi was poorly prepared, weight drained, and badly motivated. Lots of good boxers fight to the level of comp they are facing. If Handjob had ever boxed he would know that.

I just cant stop LOLing about him thinking Froch beats Toney. Slow, wide swinging Carl Froch ffs. Toney eats guys like that for breakfast.

And playing down Toney's annihilation of Barkely. As far as I'm concerned, 2 wins over Tommy Hearns is a hell of a lot better than anything Froch ever did. Plus a close fight with a still very good Roberto Duran.

I wasn't going to bother responding but I feel sorry that no one has responded to you yet.

No ones responded to you because no one gives a **** what you think. You claim no one takes me seriously? When not only is that clearly not the case it's actually the case for you.

Oh yes, Barkley is better than Froch mate

[IronDanHamza]

As far as '90s fighters that are overrated compared to their actual accomplishments I could think of several that should come before Finito.

He isn't even that well known by the average fan. When hardcores bring him up it's usually to point out that hey, there's this great little fighter that you probably never heard of that you might want to take a look at.

His resume isn't the most impressive but that's a function of the weight class he chose to stay in for most of his career I think. To his credit he at least racked up a lot of title defenses and he passes the eye test when it comes to having top notch skills.

Who could you think of?

He may not be that well known but he's considered an ATG by most boxing fans I would say from what I've seen.

I don't buy that excuse because he could have moved up in weight where good fights were available.

[Rockin']

Now...lets talk Tiberi because you make a good point imo with this fight. Toney was obviously sub par but, if he showed up sub par and Froch beat him...oh well. Tiberi was indeed succesful the way Froch would be. he was very active, he fought at a distance where he could land shots...Froch likes to be in a place where he can punch, not necessarily smother...and Tiberi did hurt Toney by pressing, beating him to the punch...Notice that with Tiberi unlike with Thadzi, it was not his size and smother distance, it was simply punching when Toney wasn't and beating Toney to the punch...something froch does quite a bit. Toney only can fight well backwards when he can set up for a counter, he does not like to be pushed back, past where he can be profile (sideways) and use his hips and shoulders to set up his counters. This guy just simply never let Toney set his feet, and Toney looked to be out of condition, frustrated by Tiberi.

So, could this fight be an anomolie? or did it show the possability that a tough, presser, with good punch power and persistance might give toney problems? I don't know but its a possability imo. The final thing i would say on this is that unlike Thadzi who did not really land on Toney...and who did get hit by Toney a lot actually, Tiberi was effective against toney and hit him with some decent shots.

James was having severe trouble making weight for that Tiberi bout. His issue with the scales hsd slready begun. James dropped more bouts at the scales than he ever has in a ring.

James was the man....................

[BennyST]

I can't think of anyone regarded as a modern ATG with a weaker opponent list.

I can, although not a modern great. Jimmy Wilde.

But yes, he's sorely lacking in the big wins department. He's got quite a few really solid, good wins, but no great ones at all.

[sonnyboyx2]

I can, although not a modern great. Jimmy Wilde.

But yes, he's sorely lacking in the big wins department. He's got quite a few really solid, good wins, but no great ones at all.

Jimmy Wilde?... The Greatest Flyweight who ever lived. Wilde won his first 100 recorded fights, beating the very best there was to beat. Yet you claim his resume is "WEAK" LOL...