James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[IronDanHamza]

The same argument can be used the other way too though. When did Froch ever beat anyone with as much skill as Toney, or even look good against someone with good skills?

The closest fighter to Toney he fought was obviously Ward and it was an easy UD. He struggled with fighters like Taylor and Groves, nearly getting stopped by both, who are far inferior to Toney so the same argument applies.

You are looking at the worst of Toney and then comparing him to the best of Froch. Toney rarely faded late and was actually a good champions fighter. A spot fighter, but didn't fade late.

One last thing. You keep saying he didn't beat any 'top' opponent. What do you consider a top opponent? It seems like you're talking of top opponents in an ATG, historical kind of sense. Surely the champions and top rated contenders of Toney's day qualify as top opponents.

Otherwise you end up having to take off all opponents from everyone you rank except for the ATG's they fought and suddenly hardly anyone has done anything good or impressive in their careers.

Obviously I think Barkly is a top opponent. He was a champion when Toney beat him. Aside from that he was a 3 division champ, and beat Hearns by decision and by KO right after Hearns had beaten Virgil Hill, Dennis Andries, Roldan, etc. He gave everyone he fought a very tough night out...except Toney. That's impressive to me.

I don't know what it takes to impress you. It would have to be a lot though.

Yeah it can be argued the other way but that would make sense if I was saying "Froch would destroy Toney in one of the most one sided massacres in the history of the sport" but that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying Froch MIGHT win by an SD type decision.

Froch was no where near to getting stopped by Taylor but that's neither here nor there.

Toney did fate late quote a few times. It cost him comfortable decisions against Williams and Sosa.

No I'm not. I haven't even used a fight to compare them. I'm comparing prime Froch to prime Toney. Toney lost those fights in his prime.

I genuinely consider top guys to be guys ranked in the top 3. But it's all relative. If you're P4P obviously you're a top guy and generally Top 5 then you tend to be in the argument.

You'd say Barkley gave Nigel Benn a tough out?

It doesn't take all that much to impress me really. If you beat a top guy in clear fashion I will consider that impressive.

[robertzimmerman]

Quote: "Yeah if you look at the names he fought at face value yeah it's a great resume but if you actually look at the performances and results then it's really not that impressive." Unquote.

I couldn't be bothered looking through all the posts to find the original, so just copy and pasted it from my earlier post. Anyway, it's not a big deal. Was just a bit confused by you saying it was only his performances in winning, or close fights that made him overrated, despite his excellent resume and overall career.

I think he obviously looked amazing against Jirov. I'm truly baffled that you don't consider that a top performance. Jirov was an impressive fighter at his every best and Toney outboxed him, then outfought him.

Being a close fight doesn't take away from it being a great performance. Anyone is going to struggle with a big, tall southpaw, who has killer stamina, good boxing and doesn't stop. Toney did about as well as you could have considering...explain what is not impressive about that performance. He showed stamina, great boxing skill, impressive counter punching, speed, great defense, amazing heart and grit, slick movement and great fighting off the ropes. There was nothing unimpressive about it.

It seems like you equate a close fight with a poor performance. Who is ever going to dominate Mike McCallum, unless it's the 90 year old version Roy fought? Not everyone is Roy Jones and if you look that way at most great fighters careers, their best wins against their best opponents will nearly always be in close, hard fights which means nearly every great fighter has largely unimpressive performances in all their biggest fights.

Doesn't make it unimpressive. The opposite in fact, because they have to lift so much more.

Toney had to lift his game dramatically to win, and he did. It was an incredible display of boxing.

As for the performance against McCallum, of course he's not going to dominate him! This isn't Floyd/Gatti. Floyd's fight against Castillo was close, but that doesn't make it unimpressive in the slightest! That's like saying Duran fought an unimpressive fight against Leonard because he didn't dominate him, or Leonard against Hearns, or Ali against Frazier.

I don't know...

I guess I see a win over McCallum as impressive because it's Mike McCallum! You have to fight an impressive fight in every aspect to beat and it's never going to be easy or dominant. That's what he did. You even agree, but then say it's not good because he didn't dominate him? That makes no sense to me.

Same with Nunn. Despite him having to come from behind, he was very young still, very inexperienced, in his first ever championship fight, against one of the sports top P4P fighters, and while he showed his youth and inexperience, he also showed off an impressive display of defense, offence, and heart to come back and get the win by KO. What was unimpressive about that? That he didn't dominate from the first bell? Like I said, that's gong to happen against great, hard to beat opponents like Nunn. Nunn's only KO and he was never even really beaten clearly again. His only other losses were all incredibly close fights that could have gone either way. The fact that Toney came into his first ever title fight, in Nunn's hometown, young still, inexperienced and did what no one else was able to do...I find that impressive.

Do you think Leonard's first win over Hearns is also unimpressive?

Anyway, although he might get overrated a bit, I think that comes about because of his amazing individual skills and abilities. However, because of his lack of discipline and losses to guys he should't have lost to, that obviously hurts his overall standing. But mostly, he seems to be rated very accordingly for what he achieved and I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he's the most overrated of the entire decade.

I love the Jirov fight. Particularly the bit where Steward nearly falls off his seat at the end. Haha awesome!

An exceptional post Benny.

I agree entirely with everything you have written.

[IronDanHamza]

An exceptional post Benny.

I agree entirely with everything you have written.

Yeah but that's because you're a Toney fan

[robertzimmerman]

Yeah but that's because you're a Toney fan

I am a fan. Not a huge one though. But I agree with what he's written. You're too harsh.

It doesn't make any difference to me that he didn't easily dominate what you consider to be top fighters.

Not many fighters do.

Whichever you way you slice it, they were impressive performances over Nunn and Mike.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[billeau2]

So your assesment is Froch might land a punch here and there for one or MAYBE two rounds before Toneh dominates and ultimately knocks him out in 7 rounds.

And you're asking me why I think Toney is overrated?

When has Toney EVER done that to anyone on Froch's level? When has Toney ever fought someone and eluded punches that consistently for an entire fight?

You think Froch is ordinary, what is Dave Tiberi? What is Drake Thadzi? What is Merqui Sosa?

I can't even imagine what people would say if Toney was matched against the above 3 in fantasy fights. "Tiberi would last maybe 4 rounds and would maybe land one grazing jab" yet Tiberi beat him clearly.

"Sosa? Can he even spell defense? Does he even know how to put his hands up? He's slow as molasses, Sosa I'd expect will land zero punches in the first and then will get knocked out in the second"

Toney only performs the way you've described in fantasy fights I'm afraid.

I am very biased regarding Froch. I find him extremely ordinary... With that said I do think there is some objectivity to the susceptability Froch would have against a technical fighter like Toney. Froch showed some of these tendencies against Ward. When Froch can't impse his will I think he shuts down, when countered he would shut down and to me this is where he becomes susceptable to Toney's punching ability.

My analysis is based on the style as well as the skill level of each man. Montel Griffith is imo about Froch's level in terms of overall ability, but would always be problems for Toney because of style. Froch is ready made for Toney. he comes foward, is easily to counter, etc.

[ShoulderRoll]

Does he get rated accodrdingly? I don't know. I think that's debatable.

If he isn't then who is? He has to be amongst the discussion IMO. I'd say maybe Lopez is a better choice.

You really have a bee in your bonnet about Ricardo Lopez, do you?

[IronDanHamza]

I am very biased regarding Froch. I find him extremely ordinary... With that said I do think there is some objectivity to the susceptability Froch would have against a technical fighter like Toney. Froch showed some of these tendencies against Ward. When Froch can't impse his will I think he shuts down, when countered he would shut down and to me this is where he becomes susceptable to Toney's punching ability.

My analysis is based on the style as well as the skill level of each man. Montel Griffith is imo about Froch's level in terms of overall ability, but would always be problems for Toney because of style. Froch is ready made for Toney. he comes foward, is easily to counter, etc.

Merqui Sosa is easy to counter yet Toney had his hands full with him.

Sosa actually reminds me of Froch (a poor version)

So if we're saying "Ward beat Froch therefore Toney dominated and Sparks Froch in 7" then what about "Toney had his hands full with Sosa so Froch might have a chance?"

We are using Ward as a measuring stick for this, when Ward is a better fighter than Toney IMO.

Why can't we use Dave Tiberi, Merqui Sosa or Drake Thadzi as a measuring stick? All 3 worse than Froch, by the way.

[IronDanHamza]

You really have a bee in your bonnet about Ricardo Lopez, do you?

Not really.

Style wise I like watching him.

Just another one that's very overrated by their fans.

[Scott9945]

Not really.

Style wise I like watching him.

Just another one that's very overrated by their fans.

I can't think of anyone regarded as a modern ATG with a weaker opponent list.

[ShoulderRoll]

Not really.

Style wise I like watching him.

Just another one that's very overrated by their fans.

As far as '90s fighters that are overrated compared to their actual accomplishments I could think of several that should come before Finito.

He isn't even that well known by the average fan. When hardcores bring him up it's usually to point out that hey, there's this great little fighter that you probably never heard of that you might want to take a look at.

His resume isn't the most impressive but that's a function of the weight class he chose to stay in for most of his career I think. To his credit he at least racked up a lot of title defenses and he passes the eye test when it comes to having top notch skills.