James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[sonnyboyx2]

In your opinion he should be that. IMO he lost to Johnson, Tiberi, McCallum, Griffin, Jones and Thadzi all in his prime years. Works both ways.

How was Tiberi at the tail end of his career that was in 1992. And he clearly lost that fight in one of the worst robberies in the history of the sport.

Defeating? Who did Toney defeat at Heavyweight? He beat Evander into the retirement home then he lost to Peter twice and drew with Rahman. Ruiz is an NC if I recall correctly.

You want me to name fighters who started at Middleweight and competed with Heavyweights;

Billy Conn started at 135 lbs and went up and boxed circles around Joe Louis.

Chris Byrd started at Middleweight and went on to win a title at HW.

Floyd Patterson started his career at 163 lbs went on to be Heavyweight Champikn

Eddie Mustafa Muhammad started his career at 150 lbs and went up to lose a close decision to contender Reinaldo Snipes who we all know as the guy who dropped and badly hurt Larry Holmes in his valiant loss to him.

Bob Fitzsimmons, self explanatory.

Roy Jones 154 to heavyweight and won a title there.

I'm sure I've missed some.

You guys rate Toney moving up to Heavyweight and losing and drawing with contenders highly. I don't.

Most of the above won titles, Toney didn't.

I asked, "Which 160 World Champions" moved all the way up to Heavyweight and competed on a level Toney did?.... Answer -NONE!

Chris Byrd, Billy Conn, Floyd Patterson, Eddie Mustapha never competed against the class of opponents in the lower weight classes, which James Toney competed against on a regular basis. They never competed at World Level, in the lower divisions like Toney did.

Toney was robbed against Peter & Rahman (twice). Holyfield was the betting favourite to beat Toney, yet took a career worst beating.

Dan, i can see your points of view here in your thread. But i cannot see how you can claim Toney to be the most overrated fighter of the 90s.. Toney was even voted Fighter of the Year in 1991..

[IronDanHamza]

I asked, "Which 160 World Champions" moved all the way up to Heavyweight and competed on a level Toney did?.... Answer -NONE!

Chris Byrd, Billy Conn, Floyd Patterson, Eddie Mustapha never competed against the class of opponents in the lower weight classes, which James Toney competed against on a regular basis. They never competed at World Level, in the lower divisions like Toney did.

Toney was robbed against Peter & Rahman (twice). Holyfield was the betting favourite to beat Toney, yet took a career worst beating.

Dan, i can see your points of view here in your thread. But i cannot see how you can claim Toney to be the most overrated fighter of the 90s.. Toney was even voted Fighter of the Year in 1991..

I just gave you a list of fighters that competed at 160 and below and went on to Heavyweight and compete with the contenders there and win titles.

Did Toney win a title at HW? No.

You're telling me Billy Conn didn't fight the level of opponents James Toney did? You might want to re-think that one.

They all competed at 160 and all went to Heavyweight. And most of them fought better opponent be and beat better opponents at HW.

James Toney was not robbed against Peter or Rahman. Yet another excuse for Toney every loss or draw he had he was either out of shape or robbed. When the onus ever be on Toney and that fact he wasn't good enough on the night? Toney seemingly gets excused for every loss and poor performance he had.

The only robbery James Toney was involved in was the robbery of Dave Tiberi. Now THAT is what you call a robbery.

So what he was voted fighter of the year in 1991? What's what supposed to tell me?

You "can't see how I can say he's overrated" because you don't want to hear it. I've already extensively explained why I think he's overrated using both logic and reasonable thinking.

[IronDanHamza]

Wasn't the first Pete fight a draw? Evander was still good when he fought Toney Dan. Roy won a title so let me ask you, do you think Roy had a better career at heavy beating a fighter like ruiz than Toney who beat Rahman, and drew/lost with Peter, and beat an atg? I see the substance of your argument but IMO you stray on this part of the argument into a weak area. If you want to qualify the wins of a fighter...a perfectly legitimate enterprise for the purposes of how you evaluate Toney, then you have to be particularly mindful of not giving credit where credit is due:

For example, Sam Peter was thought by many to be in the best shape of his life during the second Toney fight, thats a fact. Rahman was also in very good shape when he fought Toney...which would leave a reasonable man to at least consider that Toney being competative against Evander was not necessarily conditional. and no...Evander was not prime against Toney, thats not my point. Notice how I have not mentioned Toney's shape? lol

Also, one can compare Conn and perhaps mustafa to Toney because like Toney these guys were not intending to make it a career in the heavyweight division...we all know Toney went to the division to pick low hanging fruit and he compares quite favorably to men who have done that in the past.

Generalling speaking: I don't think you are fair to Toney regarding his heavyweight achievment. You know as well as i do that Ruiz was really low hanging fruit and an easy mark for Jones. Calling Ruiz a champ while true is a bit disengenius imo.

Otherwise I think your points regarding toney deserve some consideration...I never look at a judge's decision as the last word regarding a fight and we need people to watch the fights and describe what happened during the fight to have an accurate perception of a fighter's abilities.

No he first Peter fight was not a draw it was a loss.

Evander was still good but then he lost to Larry Donald in his next fight? Ok fair enough I don't agree with you.

Yeah Peter may have been in great shape the second time maybe that's why he beat Toney easier.

I don't understand this "weak area" I've clearly given Toney plenty of credit but I've also been truthful about his performances and the fact is they were constantly lacking and left a lot to be desired.

I also acknowledge his loss's against sub par opponent a like Tiberi and Thadzi which people want to be pretend don't exist. Aswell as a number of other struggles in his career.

I understand that Toney is the sweetheart of the forums and has a convenient excuse for every time he underperformed and gets a substatial amount of credit for going 1-2-1 against Heavyweight contenders, whilst being caught for enchantment drugs during this period mind you, so it's difficult to make an opposing argument.

[sonnyboyx2]

I just gave you a list of fighters that competed at 160 and below and went on to Heavyweight and compete with the contenders there and win titles.

Did Toney win a title at HW? No.

You're telling me Billy Conn didn't fight the level of opponents James Toney did? You might want to re-think that one.

They all competed at 160 and all went to Heavyweight. And most of them fought better opponent be and beat better opponents at HW.

James Toney was not robbed against Peter or Rahman. Yet another excuse for Toney every loss or draw he had he was either out of shape or robbed. When the onus ever be on Toney and that fact he wasn't good enough on the night? Toney seemingly gets excused for every loss and poor performance he had.

The only robbery James Toney was involved in was the robbery of Dave Tiberi. Now THAT is what you call a robbery.

So what he was voted fighter of the year in 1991? What's what supposed to tell me?

You "can't see how I can say he's overrated" because you don't want to hear it. I've already extensively explained why I think he's overrated using both logic and reasonable thinking.

Dan, Let me ask you for the tird time mate. "Which World Middleweight Champion" moved up to Heavyweight and fought 2 Universally recognised former undisputed Heavyweight Champions of the World and hammered both?

James Toney also hammered reigning champion John Ruiz, along with No1 Heavyweight contender Sam Peter (twice)... Now it is pointless claiming Toney failed a steroid test, because steroids do not improve a fighters boxing ability. ie Ruiz fight... Roy Jones tested positive for at least two fights.

Billy Conn decent fighter that he was, his record does not stack up against James Toney's record. i say Conn never fought the opposition in any weight division better than James Toney did, with the exception of his two KO losses to Joe Louis. Billy Conn was never 160lb World Champion.

James Toney never lost to Tomato-cans early in his career like Billy Conn did.

[IronDanHamza]

Dan, Let me ask you for the tird time mate. "Which World Middleweight Champion" moved up to Heavyweight and fought 2 Universally recognised former undisputed Heavyweight Champions of the World and hammered both?

James Toney also hammered reigning champion John Ruiz, along with No1 Heavyweight contender Sam Peter (twice)... Now it is pointless claiming Toney failed a steroid test, because steroids do not improve a fighters boxing ability. ie Ruiz fight... Roy Jones tested positive for at least two fights.

Billy Conn decent fighter that he was, his record does not stack up against James Toney's record. i say Conn never fought the opposition in any weight division better than James Toney did, with the exception of his two KO losses to Joe Louis. Billy Conn was never 160lb World Champion.

James Toney never lost to Tomato-cans early in his career like Billy Conn did.

James Toney clearly lost to Dave Tiberi. Not far off a tomato can if you ask me.

I have already answered your question and named numerous middleweights that performed just as good if not better than Toney at Heavyweight. Maybe not "champions" but that's just semantics. Toney was never a champion at HW anyway.

Toney by no means "hammered" Sam Peter he lost to him twice.

Billy Conn's record not only stacks up to Toney's I would say it's better than Toney's. Especially if we're talking wins and at 160 and above.

[sonnyboyx2]

James Toney clearly lost to Dave Tiberi. Not far off a tomato can if you ask me.

I have already answered your question and named numerous middleweights that performed just as good if not better than Toney at Heavyweight. Maybe not "champions" but that's just semantics. Toney was never a champion at HW anyway.

Toney by no means "hammered" Sam Peter he lost to him twice.

Billy Conn's record not only stacks up to Toney's I would say it's better than Toney's. Especially if we're talking wins and at 160 and above.

No Toney never hammered Sam Peter, But Toney was 38yrs of age and clearly sufferring from punch-drunk syndrome by this stage of his career. Toney was unmarked, while Peter was "Bust-Up".. i had Toney winning their first fight.

Toney "Hammered" Holyfield & Rahman (twice).. yet you give him zero credit.

Dave Tiberi was vastly superior to the tomato-cans Billy Conn lost too.

You have not answered my question or named me any 160lb champions who performed better than Toney did at Heavyweight.

Chris Byrd never fought professional at middleweight. Byrd fought at Heavyweight from his 5th pro bout. Billy Conn beat former welterweight champion Fritie Zivic, which was no big deal considering Zivic was a former featherweight. Conn's resume is quite poor compared to James Toney's resume. Conn getting KOd by Joe Louis doesn't make him better than Toney.

The bottom line is, James Toney was "Punch Drunk" when fighting at Heavyweight. Yet still performed impressively. To claim Toney to be The most overrated fighter of the 90s is preposterous.

[IronDanHamza]

No Toney never hammered Sam Peter, But Toney was 38yrs of age and clearly sufferring from punch-drunk syndrome by this stage of his career. Toney was unmarked, while Peter was "Bust-Up".. i had Toney winning their first fight.

Toney "Hammered" Holyfield & Rahman (twice).. yet you give him zero credit.

Dave Tiberi was vastly superior to the tomato-cans Billy Conn lost too.

You have not answered my question or named me any 160lb champions who performed better than Toney did at Heavyweight.

Chris Byrd never fought professional at middleweight. Byrd fought at Heavyweight from his 5th pro bout. Billy Conn beat former welterweight champion Fritie Zivic, which was no big deal considering Zivic was a former featherweight. Conn's resume is quite poor compared to James Toney's resume. Conn getting KOd by Joe Louis doesn't make him better than Toney.

The bottom line is, James Toney was "Punch Drunk" when fighting at Heavyweight. Yet still performed impressively. To claim Toney to be The most overrated fighter of the 90s is preposterous.

He drew with Rahman.

Tiberi isn't any worse really he was never a contender and he beat Toney very clearly when Toney was in his prime.

Chris Byrd fought at 169 lbs.

If you think Conn's resume is poor compared to Toney's then fine. I think you're wrong. And his first bout with Louis was far more impressive than any of Toney's loss's at HW.

You think it's preposterous but the it's really not. It's clear in my eyes that Toney at the very least is amongst the discussion at the very least and I have made logical and reasonable points to support that.

The fact that this thread is filled from top to bottom with excuses as to why Toney never beat a top level opponent impressively and lost to sub-par opponents (Tiberi and Thadzi) good opponents (griffin x2) and was absolutely dominated by the best fighter he fought just confirms to me further how overrated he is. The onus is never on Toney, maybe the reason for this is because Toney simply wasn't good enough or as good as you seem to think he was.

[sonnyboyx2]

He drew with Rahman.

Tiberi isn't any worse really he was never a contender and he beat Toney very clearly when Toney was in his prime.

Chris Byrd fought at 169 lbs.

If you think Conn's resume is poor compared to Toney's then fine. I think you're wrong. And his first bout with Louis was far more impressive than any of Toney's loss's at HW.

You think it's preposterous but the it's really not. It's clear in my eyes that Toney at the very least is amongst the discussion at the very least and I have made logical and reasonable points to support that.

The fact that this thread is filled from top to bottom with excuses as to why Toney never beat a top level opponent impressively and lost to sub-par opponents (Tiberi and Thadzi) good opponents (griffin x2) and was absolutely dominated by the best fighter he fought just confirms to me further how overrated he is. The onus is never on Toney, maybe the reason for this is because Toney simply wasn't good enough or as good as you seem to think he was.

You claim Toney was "absolutely dominated" by the best fighter he fought.. Roy Jones Jr. would most likely "Absolutely dominate" almost every fighter who ever lived at Super-middleweight.. so no tears shed there.

The only excuse i've made for James Toney is, he was punch-drunk when fighting at Heavyweight.. well if Punch-drunk is an excuse for Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry & Bobby Chacon then it's an excuse for James Toney.

There is no onus on James Toney. James Toney has nothing to prove to any posters on this thread, with the exception of yourself. You have not been able to name me another middleweight champion of the world, who has been able to replicate or better the achievements of James Toney at Heavyweight.That in itself shows Toney cannot be overrated and certainly not the most overrated fighter of the 90s.

7 times trainer of the year - Freddie Roach. who has trained some exceptional fighters over the last 20yrs said: "James Toney is the most talented fighter i've ever trained"... Toney defeated 10 former or current world title holders. He won world titles at 160, 168 & 190 pounds. He defeated aging but great fighters in Mike McCallum and Evander Holyfield, and he upset the odds when he beat Michael Nunn (then 36-0) and Vassiliy Jirov (then 31-0), both of whom were undefeated, in their prime and viewed as the best in their divisions at the time.

Toney was THE RING’s Fighter of the Year in 1991, the year he beat Nunn and drew with McCallum, who Toney fought three times, winning both return bouts. He repeated as THE RING Fighter of the Year in 2003, the year he beat Jirov and Holyfield.

It doesn’t sound like the resume of an underachiever or overrated fighter. “If he didn’t have an eating disorder, Toney would’ve gone down as one of the greatest fighters in history,”

[IronDanHamza]

You claim Toney was "absolutely dominated" by the best fighter he fought.. Roy Jones Jr. would most likely "Absolutely dominate" almost every fighter who ever lived at Super-middleweight.. so no tears shed there.

The only excuse i've made for James Toney is, he was punch-drunk when fighting at Heavyweight.. well if Punch-drunk is an excuse for Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry & Bobby Chacon then it's an excuse for James Toney.

There is no onus on James Toney. James Toney has nothing to prove to any posters on this thread, with the exception of yourself. You have not been able to name me another middleweight champion of the world, who has been able to replicate or better the achievements of James Toney at Heavyweight.That in itself shows Toney cannot be overrated and certainly not the most overrated fighter of the 90s.

7 times trainer of the year - Freddie Roach. who has trained some exceptional fighters over the last 20yrs said: "James Toney is the most talented fighter i've ever trained"... Toney defeated 10 former or current world title holders. He won world titles at 160, 168 & 190 pounds. He defeated aging but great fighters in Mike McCallum and Evander Holyfield, and he upset the odds when he beat Michael Nunn (then 36-0) and Vassiliy Jirov (then 31-0), both of whom were undefeated, in their prime and viewed as the best in their divisions at the time.

Toney was THE RING’s Fighter of the Year in 1991, the year he beat Nunn and drew with McCallum, who Toney fought three times, winning both return bouts. He repeated as THE RING Fighter of the Year in 2003, the year he beat Jirov and Holyfield.

It doesn’t sound like the resume of an underachiever or overrated fighter. “If he didn’t have an eating disorder, Toney would’ve gone down as one of the greatest fighters in history,”

"If he didn't have an eating disorder he would have gone down as one of the greatest fighters in history"

That statment alone right there literally proves my point at how ridiculously overrated he is.

One of the greatest fighters ever if he was "in shape" yet while in shape he very arguably lost to Reggie Johnson and Dave Tiberi and failed to dominate Sanderline Williams or Merqui Sosa while he was "In shape".

Reggie Johnson boxed circles around "in shape" Toney for the first 5 rounds and made him look amateurish for the entire fight. Yet you're telling me that if he was "In shape" he'd be one of the greatest fighters ever?

You keep asking me the same specific question. It's like asking me to name another fighter who was a 4 weight world champion by age 26 other than Adrien Broner. No one. Therefore Adrien Broner can't be overrated. It's ridiculous logic.

There may not be many MW "champions" that moved up to HW but there's plenty of MW's that did and did better than Toney at HW. Asking for a MW " "champion" is just you being pedantic. I've answered your question numerous times.

You can reel off all the nice looking stats on paper all you want. 10 time Champion, 100 time fighter of the year winner, Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel said he's the greatest, 1000 time MW Champion-Losing to heavyweight contenders award winner.

Yet after all that, he still has zero dominant and impressive performances over a top level opponent.

[D-MiZe]

Well, well... what's going on in here.