Who is Greater: Evander Holyfield or Barney Ross?

[Scott9945]

Which black fighters did he avoid?

That's the question that should be answered before the accusations are made.

[BennyST]

That's the question that should be answered before the accusations are made.

It probably doesn't even need to be asked first, but just be thought about before throwing out such accusations. Either way, its a silly statement when looking through the guys Ross beat. It's often the 'go to' argument I guess in these situations.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Everyone acts like the old-timers fought everyone,, Yet look at Sam Langford,,, Or the black murderers row,, There is a long history of black fighters getting frozen out,,,
Back then if you werent irish, ***ish, italian, etc,,, good luck getting a title shot,,,
If you look thru everyone's records it the same thing over and over,, italians, ***s, irish, and not alot of blacks, mexicans, ricans, etc,,,, hell mexicans, and puerto ricans did start getting shots till the 20's and 30's...
Yet everyone makes out these old-school fighters to be so great, yet its widely known mob influenced nearly all major match-making,,,
How many black guys did jack johnson defend his title against,, Just once vs langford,, and never gave him a rematch,, langford had to fight some guys like 17,18 times, yet only got 1 chance at Jack johnson,,,

Everyone on here acts like they were an adult then and had watched boxing for like 30 years,, but in reality, none of us were there,, you only know what you read about,, and that can be slanted,, just look at today's coverage from the likes of ESPN and look how most boxing writers schill for whatever promoter gives them the access,,,

Nobody on here was around back in the 20, 30, 40 to watch as an experienced boxing fan and actually knew the sport,,,
Everyone always references The Ring All-time list, but that was just Nat fleisheer opinion and people act like its set in stone,,,,

How do you know that they just lined up beatable guys for ross, mclarin, canzoneri etc,,, If you took gatti and mickey ward and hatton and corrales, you could get the same results with proper matchmaking,

And how come ***s, italians, irish dominated the sport in the mob era yet havent done anything remotely like that since the 60's..

hell marciano's best defenses are against guys in their 40's.. And some people consider him the best ever or top 5, What if the klits did that,, or tyson and then just retired,,,

How come their are no more dominant ***s, italians, irish,,, simple answer, mob isnt running the show anymore so they dont get the advantages of that,,,

To me it seems ross cashed out and finally fought a legit black in armstrong and got beatdown,,

You guys act like there was no black guys around,,,,
Somebody name the top black guys, or ricans at the time,,,

It amazes me that ross, and company are considered so great, while everybody ignores that alot of fights were fixed, and match-making was controlled by the mob,,,

Look, im not trying to say these guys were bums, but they fought competition which was controlled by the mob,,,

Everyone is saying, "name the guys that they dodged" Good luck with that since i wasnt around then, and none of you were either,, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that the game was pretty crooked then and alot of guys got overlooked and never written about and are lost to history,,, Quick name the top puerto rican lightweights in the 30's..,. You wont because the werent written about and all you guys go by is what somebody wrote about it,,,
Now with tv and internet guys like GGG, trinidad, lucas, etc have a chance to break thru to stardom,,, that wasnt the case in old-school days,,,, Look at every major boxer in that era and they all either have a promoter or manager that was connected,,,,

Why are there no italian, ***, irish dominant champs anymore,, yet they were the kingpins for like 50 years,,, probably because the controlled all the major boxing events,,

And its not hard to make people look good if you have good matchmaking,,, hell they do it in this era and fools hype up guys like floyd to be the GOAT....

I just cant see how somebody can be a 3 division lineal champ and not fight any black guys but armstrong at the very end of the career,,
Do you guys honestly believe there was no quality black guys then, or mexicans, etc,,
Just like they were no black heayweights to challenge jack johnson,,,
Or the mob didnt control the sport,, or fights werent fixed,, and fighters didnt get dodged,, and these guys from the 1900's-1960's were the greatest fighters ever and way better than guys like SRL, holyfield, benetiz, gomez, zarate, Hearns,,,

It just doesnt make any sense at all,,,

How many black guys did dempsey fight,,, and if you look at alot of the guys records they fought the same guys over and over again,,, I could match gatti and ward 8 times back in the 30's and you guys would be saying they are great, just because some magazine article or all time list tells you,,,

So I have a very tough time thinking all these guys are so superior to the guys from the last 30-40 years as most of you claim...
Look morales had a great career but never fought a slick black fighter, then fought raheem and looked like garbage,,, Same thing would have happened back then,,,,

Just answer me this,,, what happened to all the italian, ***, irish champs, how can they dominant for 50'+ years and then just lose all dominance,,, probably has to do with the lack of mob influence from the mid 60's to present......

[IronDanHamza]

Everyone acts like the old-timers fought everyone,, Yet look at Sam Langford,,, Or the black murderers row,, There is a long history of black fighters getting frozen out,,,
Back then if you werent irish, ***ish, italian, etc,,, good luck getting a title shot,,,
If you look thru everyone's records it the same thing over and over,, italians, ***s, irish, and not alot of blacks, mexicans, ricans, etc,,,, hell mexicans, and puerto ricans did start getting shots till the 20's and 30's...
Yet everyone makes out these old-school fighters to be so great, yet its widely known mob influenced nearly all major match-making,,,
How many black guys did jack johnson defend his title against,, Just once vs langford,, and never gave him a rematch,, langford had to fight some guys like 17,18 times, yet only got 1 chance at Jack johnson,,,

Everyone on here acts like they were an adult then and had watched boxing for like 30 years,, but in reality, none of us were there,, you only know what you read about,, and that can be slanted,, just look at today's coverage from the likes of ESPN and look how most boxing writers schill for whatever promoter gives them the access,,,

Nobody on here was around back in the 20, 30, 40 to watch as an experienced boxing fan and actually knew the sport,,,
Everyone always references The Ring All-time list, but that was just Nat fleisheer opinion and people act like its set in stone,,,,

How do you know that they just lined up beatable guys for ross, mclarin, canzoneri etc,,, If you took gatti and mickey ward and hatton and corrales, you could get the same results with proper matchmaking,

And how come ***s, italians, irish dominated the sport in the mob era yet havent done anything remotely like that since the 60's..

hell marciano's best defenses are against guys in their 40's.. And some people consider him the best ever or top 5, What if the klits did that,, or tyson and then just retired,,,

How come their are no more dominant ***s, italians, irish,,, simple answer, mob isnt running the show anymore so they dont get the advantages of that,,,

To me it seems ross cashed out and finally fought a legit black in armstrong and got beatdown,,

You guys act like there was no black guys around,,,,
Somebody name the top black guys, or ricans at the time,,,

It amazes me that ross, and company are considered so great, while everybody ignores that alot of fights were fixed, and match-making was controlled by the mob,,,

Look, im not trying to say these guys were bums, but they fought competition which was controlled by the mob,,,

Everyone is saying, "name the guys that they dodged" Good luck with that since i wasnt around then, and none of you were either,, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that the game was pretty crooked then and alot of guys got overlooked and never written about and are lost to history,,, Quick name the top puerto rican lightweights in the 30's..,. You wont because the werent written about and all you guys go by is what somebody wrote about it,,,
Now with tv and internet guys like GGG, trinidad, lucas, etc have a chance to break thru to stardom,,, that wasnt the case in old-school days,,,, Look at every major boxer in that era and they all either have a promoter or manager that was connected,,,,

Why are there no italian, ***, irish dominant champs anymore,, yet they were the kingpins for like 50 years,,, probably because the controlled all the major boxing events,,

And its not hard to make people look good if you have good matchmaking,,, hell they do it in this era and fools hype up guys like floyd to be the GOAT....

I just cant see how somebody can be a 3 division lineal champ and not fight any black guys but armstrong at the very end of the career,,
Do you guys honestly believe there was no quality black guys then, or mexicans, etc,,
Just like they were no black heayweights to challenge jack johnson,,,
Or the mob didnt control the sport,, or fights werent fixed,, and fighters didnt get dodged,, and these guys from the 1900's-1960's were the greatest fighters ever and way better than guys like SRL, holyfield, benetiz, gomez, zarate, Hearns,,,

It just doesnt make any sense at all,,,

How many black guys did dempsey fight,,, and if you look at alot of the guys records they fought the same guys over and over again,,, I could match gatti and ward 8 times back in the 30's and you guys would be saying they are great, just because some magazine article or all time list tells you,,,

So I have a very tough time thinking all these guys are so superior to the guys from the last 30-40 years as most of you claim...
Look morales had a great career but never fought a slick black fighter, then fought raheem and looked like garbage,,, Same thing would have happened back then,,,,

Just answer me this,,, what happened to all the italian, ***, irish champs, how can they dominant for 50'+ years and then just lose all dominance,,, probably has to do with the lack of mob influence from the mid 60's to present......

So, in your opinion, who were the black fighters being held back or frozen out?

And which of these did Ross avoid?

Without naming these fighters it makes your argument empty.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So, in your opinion, who were the black fighters being held back or frozen out?

And which of these did Ross avoid?

Without naming these fighters it makes your argument empty.

How do you know that ross and company was so great,, did you watch them as an adult live as an experienced boxing fan,,,,,

Are you telling me for a over decades there was not a legit black challenger??

Name me the great black fighters that ross beat?????????

Just tell me how you know Ross and company were great?????

Not trying to disrespect people's knowledge of the game,, but no one here was around back then???
You guys just know this stuff because you read about it from some old newspaper article,, yet some articles probably slanted towards what sold, which was italian, ***, and irish fighters,,,,

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So, in your opinion, who were the black fighters being held back or frozen out?

And which of these did Ross avoid?

Without naming these fighters it makes your argument empty.

And to answer your question, i think both, frozen out and held back...
Name the black guys that ross fought since he had 70+ fights and 3 division lineal champ........ Henry Armstrong is about it.... and he beatdown ross, and according to published accounts, took it easy on him,,,


Didnt gatti look good beating That italian guy for vacant 140 belt and then beat dorin and leija,, he looked like a million bucks,, then fought mayweather and couldnt land a punch,,, How do you know that wasnt happening in the mob era...

[IronDanHamza]

And to answer your question, i think both, frozen out and held back...
Name the black guys that ross fought since he had 70+ fights and 3 division lineal champ........ Henry Armstrong is about it.... and he beatdown ross, and according to published accounts, took it easy on him,,,


Didnt gatti look good beating That italian guy for vacant 140 belt and then beat dorin and leija,, he looked like a million bucks,, then fought mayweather and couldnt land a punch,,, How do you know that wasnt happening in the mob era...

You're not answering the question. You're answering the question with more questions.

I didn't make any claims, I don't need to answer any questions.

You are the one who is making the claims thus it's you who needs to support them.

Who are the black fighters who were held back in that particular time?

And, which of these did Ross avoid?

You're going to need to answer those questions for your claims to have any legitimacy. Just saying it isn't going to do anything for your argument neither is responding with irrelevant topics.

As for the "published accounts" on Armstrong-Ross. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, put that fight was filmed and it's easily accessible.

A lot of statments you make lead me to believe you're not quite educated in some of these topics.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

You're not answering the question. You're answering the question with more questions.

I didn't make any claims, I don't need to answer any questions.

You are the one who is making the claims thus it's you who needs to support them.

Who are the black fighters who were held back in that particular time?

And, which of these did Ross avoid?

You're going to need to answer those questions for your claims to have any legitimacy. Just saying it isn't going to do anything for your argument neither is responding with irrelevant topics.

As for the "published accounts" on Armstrong-Ross. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, put that fight was filmed and it's easily accessible.

A lot of statments you make lead me to believe you're not quite educated in some of these topics.

Bold- just look at the history section of boxingscene for that fight,,,,

I couldnt tell you the guys that were avoided because they werent covered by mainstream media,,, Thats the whole point,,,,

How do you know ross was great,,, Answer: you read about it

Or am i wrong,,, how to you come to your conclusion that he was great,, did you watch his career, where you around back then..

So you think there was no legit black challengers,, that the mob didnt hype their guys up,,,,

there's no way of telling what guys were dodged because if they werent written about then we would have no clue,,, isnt that how you got your knowledge of Ross..

Do you really think a guy can go thru 3 division lineal title reigns and not fight a black guy...

How many did dempsey fight,, There was no legit contenders back then??

ARe you serious? No black fighters for over a decade,,, in the mob era,,,

where did all the great italian, ***, and irish world champs go,,,

Did black guys not box then????????

[IronDanHamza]

[/B]

Bold- just look at the history section of boxingscene for that fight,,,,

I couldnt tell you the guys that were avoided because they werent covered by mainstream media,,, Thats the whole point,,,,

How do you know ross was great,,, Answer: you read about it

Or am i wrong,,, how to you come to your conclusion that he was great,, did you watch his career, where you around back then..

So you think there was no legit black challengers,, that the mob didnt hype their guys up,,,,

there's no way of telling what guys were dodged because if they werent written about then we would have no clue,,, isnt that how you got your knowledge of Ross..

Do you really think a guy can go thru 3 division lineal title reigns and not fight a black guy...

How many did dempsey fight,, There was no legit contenders back then??

ARe you serious? No black fighters for over a decade,,, in the mob era,,,

where did all the great italian, ***, and irish world champs go,,,

Did black guys not box then????????

So you don't have the answer?

You claim he avoided black fighters yet can't name anyone and settle with "They were hidden".

So why is it Armstrong wasn't? Why is that black fighters before Ross' time weren't? Is it that some were and some weren't?

You can't make a bold claim like Ross avoided black fighters when #1, he fought Armstrong and #2 You can't name a single black fighter he avoided.

[JAB5239]

[/B]

Bold- just look at the history section of boxingscene for that fight,,,,

I couldnt tell you the guys that were avoided because they werent covered by mainstream media,,, Thats the whole point,,,,

How do you know ross was great,,, Answer: you read about it

Or am i wrong,,, how to you come to your conclusion that he was great,, did you watch his career, where you around back then..

So you think there was no legit black challengers,, that the mob didnt hype their guys up,,,,

there's no way of telling what guys were dodged because if they werent written about then we would have no clue,,, isnt that how you got your knowledge of Ross..

Do you really think a guy can go thru 3 division lineal title reigns and not fight a black guy...

How many did dempsey fight,, There was no legit contenders back then??

ARe you serious? No black fighters for over a decade,,, in the mob era,,,

where did all the great italian, ***, and irish world champs go,,,

Did black guys not box then????????

I got a question for you my man. Lets just assume there were top black fighters in Ross' weight classes, why were they not given any press like the like the Gans, Langfords, Dixens, Johnsons, Wills, Jeanets, McVea's, or the black murderers row? I don't think their was some kind of conspiracy going on to keep them from the public eye so Ross would be seen as a greater fighter decades down the road.