Who is Greater: Evander Holyfield or Barney Ross?

[IronDanHamza]

Holyfield would still have foreman, tyson twice, 2 fights with lewis, win over rahman, dokes, mercer, etc

Garcia was a joke,, Even mayorga and Baldomir and buster douglas were lineal champs,, those things happen,, And go by rankings, because those are never rigged,, Petrollle,, another italian,, great, thanks for making my point that is was closed,,,

Holyfield's win over Foreman isn't anything to shout about nor the others.

Dokes is a good win and he has other good solid wins over contenders as does Ross.

Why are you so positive the rankings were rigged? For what?

What does it matter Petrolle was Italian? Petrolle was a very good fighter, a HOF'er. What difference does him being Italian make?

I don't understand why you feel the need to constantly bring race into this discussion. It doesn't matter if Petrolle was white, black, asian, latino, Petrolle was a top level, world class fighter, regardless of race.

There weren't much better fighters around at that time than Petrolle and Ross beat him.

Holyfield doesn't have many wins on his resume better than Ross' win over Petrolle in all honesty.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Holyfield's win over Foreman isn't anything to shout about nor the others.

Dokes is a good win and he has other good solid wins over contenders as does Ross.

Why are you so positive the rankings were rigged? For what?

What does it matter Petrolle was Italian? Petrolle was a very good fighter, a HOF'er. What difference does him being Italian make?

I don't understand why you feel the need to constantly bring race into this discussion. It doesn't matter if Petrolle was white, black, asian, latino, Petrolle was a top level, world class fighter, regardless of race.

There weren't much better fighters around at that time than Petrolle and Ross beat him.

Holyfield doesn't have many wins on his resume better than Ross' win over Petrolle in all honesty.

First of all, i just want to say i really do respect Irondan as a poster,, Im not trying to disrespect anyone or troll,,,
I bring race into it because it played a role,, the country was very racist back then,, everything including neighhborhoods were segragated by iethnic background, hence littlechinatown, etc
I honestly feel that it is very hard to judge/rate any era when beyond undisputable fact that many got left out in the cold,,, We know about langford and black murderers row, but how many others were there??? None of us really now because none of us were there,,
Why did it take a prodigy like SRR so long to get a title shot,,
Why didnt demspey fight any black guys...
i think the rankings were corrupt,, they have always been corrupt, look at them today, khan rated #2 at welter, for no other reason than to become a future floyd opponent,, and then 80 years from now someone can khan was a legit win, he was ranked number 2... I read about it....
But back when the mob controlled it and controlled match-making, im sure non-italians/***s/irish all got a very fair shake,,,Im sure the mob would never protect one of their big ticket sellers,, im sure they brought guys from all over the world to match-up right...
Or did they control the sport and hype their guys up,, just like a modern day sven ottke

Just takes some critical thinking skills,,,,
Look how italians, ***s, irish guys have vanished from the top level of the sport, since the 60's on...
What makes you so sure you couldnt take ray mancini back in time, match him up in the 30's and you guys would be calling him a great because thats what the papers said at the time,,,,

And its too funny to me that the first contender you mention petrello and he is italian,,, Pretty much validates my point,,,
It was a closed clique, and if not connected you would never raise past club level or even get fights,,

[IronDanHamza]

First of all, i just want to say i really do respect Irondan as a poster,, Im not trying to disrespect anyone or troll,,,
I bring race into it because it played a role,, the country was very racist back then,, everything including neighhborhoods were segragated by iethnic background, hence littlechinatown, etc
I honestly feel that it is very hard to judge/rate any era when beyond undisputable fact that many got left out in the cold,,, We know about langford and black murderers row, but how many others were there??? None of us really now because none of us were there,,
Why did it take a prodigy like SRR so long to get a title shot,,
Why didnt demspey fight any black guys...
i think the rankings were corrupt,, they have always been corrupt, look at them today, khan rated #2 at welter, for no other reason than to become a future floyd opponent,, and then 80 years from now someone can khan was a legit win, he was ranked number 2... I read about it....
But back when the mob controlled it and controlled match-making, im sure non-italians/***s/irish all got a very fair shake,,,Im sure the mob would never protect one of their big ticket sellers,, im sure they brought guys from all over the world to match-up right...
Or did they control the sport and hype their guys up,, just like a modern day sven ottke

Just takes some critical thinking skills,,,,
Look how italians, ***s, irish guys have vanished from the top level of the sport, since the 60's on...
What makes you so sure you couldnt take ray mancini back in time, match him up in the 30's and you guys would be calling him a great because thats what the papers said at the time,,,,

And its too funny to me that the first contender you mention petrello and he is italian,,, Pretty much validates my point,,,
It was a closed clique, and if not connected you would never raise past club level or even get fights,,

Khan's not ranked #2 at WW. He's only ranked #2 by a sanctioning body that doesn't mean anything which everyone knows.

The papers didn't say anything about Petrolle. Petrolle still to this day is an underrated fighter and doens't get the credit he deserves. Petrolle is a good fighter because he beat good fighters. It has absolutely nothing to do with his race and him being a good win for Ross has absolutely nothing to so with race. It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter, Petrolle is a good fighter regardless. Him being Italian is irrelevant, literally.

And that win over Petrolle despite being not one of his best wins is better than a long list of Holyfields wins. Most of them.

Strip the black fighters being held back aside, just look at the resumes of what actually happened. That's what matters.

[Bolo Punch]

The majority of fighters have documentation,,, So langford and the black murderer row were the only guys ever blacklisted or frozen out over 50 year period,, Thats the only guys that have documentation when this subject comes up,, so by your logic those are the only guys,, because if not then the others would have had books on them,,, please is that your logic

So Sam Langford is the only black fighter on record before the Murderer's Row came to prominence? Umm, right...

Yeah actually i have researched it,,, ZERO international competitors for instance,,, Did he fight anyone with anyone, say the puerto rican lightweight champ, euro champ, african champ, australian champ,,, anybody,,, You say read a book,,, LOL because that is how you tell greatness,, Like i have said none of you guys know anything about the era except what you read,,,

Why does this matter? Why are you downgrading Ross' resume for things that didn't happen? Rank him on what he actually did do in his career, which was a hell of a lot.

Why dont you use some critical thinking skills,, and say thats odd,, No legit black fighters over a 3 division lineal champ resume,,Sport ran by the mob and had nothing but italian, *** and irish fighters in his weight class,, nobody but the same 3 or 4 names, Not 1 international champ,, 90% of his resume was bums like babe ruth, young terry, and older washed out fighters like baby gans,,, fought one legit in his prime black guy and got beat up by him

Again, why does this matter? Are black men superior to white men? What makes you think that any fighters he didn't fight but could have done (who happened to be black) were better than the fighters in which he did fight (which happened to be white)?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Khan's not ranked #2 at WW. He's only ranked #2 by a sanctioning body that doesn't mean anything which everyone knows.

The papers didn't say anything about Petrolle. Petrolle still to this day is an underrated fighter and doens't get the credit he deserves. Petrolle is a good fighter because he beat good fighters. It has absolutely nothing to do with his race and him being a good win for Ross has absolutely nothing to so with race. It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter, Petrolle is a good fighter regardless. Him being Italian is irrelevant, literally.

And that win over Petrolle despite being not one of his best wins is better than a long list of Holyfields wins. Most of them.

Strip the black fighters being held back aside, just look at the resumes of what actually happened. That's what matters.

Then who made the rankings in the ross era,,, You said that Petrolle was highly ranked,, by whom

And your right,, race doesnt mean anything,,, but when some races like blacks are held back its hard to compare an era like that vs an era like the 80's where all races had a legit chance,,,

Thats all i have been trying to say,,,

And the last bold, is like saying strip all the legit foreigners, Sven ottke's resume says it all,,, just look at the resume...
You can build any fighter,, look at valuev, gatti's comebacks, micheal grant, chris john,, people in asia think chris john is an ATG yet he know he has fought a limited selection of opponents,, Same thing was going on in america from the 1900-1960's

If you dont fight all races with legit fighters then its very hard to consider you a legit guy or your era legit,,,

I consider mid 60's to the early 90's to be the greatest era of boxing because you saw great fighters no matter the race or country fighting each other,,
PPV and premium channels, and promotional contracts have hurt the sport over the last 20 years,,,,

[IronDanHamza]

[/B]

Then who made the rankings in the ross era,,, You said that Petrolle was highly ranked,, by whom

And your right,, race doesnt mean anything,,, but when some races like blacks are held back its hard to compare an era like that vs an era like the 80's where all races had a legit chance,,,

Thats all i have been trying to say,,,

And the last bold, is like saying strip all the legit foreigners, Sven ottke's resume says it all,,, just look at the resume...
You can build any fighter,, look at valuev, gatti's comebacks, micheal grant, chris john,, people in asia think chris john is an ATG yet he know he has fought a limited selection of opponents,, Same thing was going on in america from the 1900-1960's

If you dont fight all races with legit fighters then its very hard to consider you a legit guy or your era legit,,,

I consider mid 60's to the early 90's to be the greatest era of boxing because you saw great fighters no matter the race or country fighting each other,,
PPV and premium channels, and promotional contracts have hurt the sport over the last 20 years,,,,

The Ring Magazine did the rankings then and do the rankings now.

What are saying is just so far from the truth and very mis informed.

Petrolle wasn't even that highly ranked, like I touched on. Still to this day he doesn't get the credit he deserves. Despite being "Italian".

Petrolle proved how good he was.

[IronDanHamza]

So Sam Langford is the only black fighter on record before the Murderer's Row came to prominence? Umm, right...



Why does this matter? Why are you downgrading Ross' resume for things that didn't happen? Rank him on what he actually did do in his career, which was a hell of a lot.



Again, why does this matter? Are black men superior to white men? What makes you think that any fighters he didn't fight but could have done (who happened to be black) were better than the fighters in which he did fight (which happened to be white)?

It keeps constantly going back to race.

It's like

"We're off topic now. Let's just talk about their resumes"

Next response;

"Well, we don't know how good these fighters are because black fighters didn't get a chance"

Constant, irrelevant topics.

Why is it some black fighters managed to get to the top and some didn't?

Maybe, just maybe, the best fighters in Ross' divison at the time weren't black? Is that not possible?

[GRboxing]

Did I see a Sven ottke reference? why would anyone strip ottke of the foreigners he fought in order to discuss his resume, why not just discuss what he actually did and not say well take away fighters a b c and D and he didnt beat anyone.

what kind of ******ed argument is that?

[Bolo Punch]

[/B]

Then who made the rankings in the ross era,,, You said that Petrolle was highly ranked,, by whom

I don't think Dan is saying that Petrolle was literally ranked highly on a list back then (although he probably was), he means that he ranks highly because of his in-ring achievements in comparison to most other contenders back then, even looking back now.

And the last bold, is like saying strip all the legit foreigners, Sven ottke's resume says it all,,, just look at the resume...
You can build any fighter,, look at valuev, gatti's comebacks, micheal grant, chris john,, people in asia think chris john is an ATG yet he know he has fought a limited selection of opponents,, Same thing was going on in america from the 1900-1960's

What a complete and utter joke of a post.

[GRboxing]

Take away Holyfield's wins over Tyson and Qawi and all you get are wins over fat old heavyweights and going 1-2 with Bowe