Who is Greater: Evander Holyfield or Barney Ross?

[GRboxing]

I know that ross fought him at the tail end of his career when gans already had like 20+ losses and ross was like his 23, and that gans was a shell of his prime self,,,,
Your like a poster from 80 years from now saying,, Calzaghe beat everyone, look he beat roy jones,,,, Beating past prime fighters as one of your big wins isnt a huge accomplishment in my book,,, Quick name the fighters Gans went on and beat after ross fight...



You actually have a very good post,, but look at when gans got his shot at ross,, at the very tail end of his career,,, he was way past his prime,,,
ANd yes latinos started winning at the superlow weights,,, but none of the italian, ***, irish fighters, fought in those super low weight classes,, majority of them fought at featherweight or higher,,, and Ross, Canzorni, Mcclarin were the money guys of the lower weights,,,,,

Do you think Langford and black murderers row were the only guys to be frozen out,,,,,
Jackie robinson was the first black player in baseball in the 40's,,, yet still many black ballplayers got dodged,,, Same thing with boxing a decade earlier,,, Yes you could have a black champ like johnson, but he was one of the very lucky few to get a shot,,, and then langford couldnt get any shots and was avoided like the plague,,,

Look the crowds in NYC were italian, ***, irish fans,, much like how today especially in america its popular with Mexican and ricans,,, hence why you see every mexican/rican prospect get hyped to the moon like the dulorme, the guy darchiyan beat up, i think his name was perez, while guys like brad solomon and shawn porter etc dont get any tv exposure,,, why is that,, because mexicans, ricans are huge supporters of the fights,,,, Same way back in the day in the 30's....
Just look at how many fights SRR had before he got a title shot at welter,,,

At you make good points about latino champs but look at battling shaw,, lineal champ in 1933 but did he get to fight ross,,, Nope....

And i am sure in ross' era there was a european champ, germany champ, Caribbean champ, canadian champ, puerto rican champ, australian champ, african champ, south american champ,, and how many of those guys did he fight???? pretty much zero, thru 3 lineal championships over 3 divisions,,,, Yet people claim he fought everyone,,, Because they recognized the names that were written about...

Quick name the top 10 black fighters from Ross' era in the lightweight, jr welter, welter,, Just name the top 10 black guys in those divisions,,, regardless if they were top ranked or not,, just name the top black guys from that era,,,, People will name baby gans and henry armstrong because those are the 2 that are written about the most,,, Im pretty sure they arent the only blacks fighting,,,, go ahead and name the top black fighters, from the 1920-1940 at lightweight, jr welter, welter,, you wont because they dont talk about it in the books you read, and arent on name fighters resume, so you have no clue,, people hadnt heard of hopkins til superlate in his career, if he was in the 20's n 30's era you may have never heard of him....

IMO its hard to judge guys from this era, since none of us lived thru it,, we can just go by what people wrote in newspaper articles,, its not like today with the internet and multiple tv outlets covering the sport,,,, the sport was obviously corrupt and slanted towards mafia fighters,,, Black guys had to wait years to get a crack at the title,, Just look at SRR and how long he had to wait and that was a decade+ after ross' era,,,

i always breakdown boxing in 3 eras,,,

old school- 1900's-1960's
TV era-1960's-1990's
PPV era 1990's-present....

Very easy to compare fighters from the same era, but nearly impossible to compare a guy from the 30's to a guy fighting in the 90's..
Thats why i think people overhype the greatness of the guys from the old school era,,, You have no context, just a record book, and some cheesy newspaper articles,,, Without context your missing a whole lot...

To say these guys fought everyone possible is crazy,,, You dont even know anything about what was going on back then except for what you read about,, There is just too much overwhelming evidence that shows that black guys werent given a fair shake over a long 5+ decades time frame,, it wasnt till the 60's that boxing was fully integrated...

Thats my honest opinion,, i laid out my logic behind it,,, I know i cant name names, but you guys cant name any legit black guys in their prime that ross fought even though he was a 3 division lineal champ.....

I just think there were many fighters lost in history during that era that we will never hear about, and have been forgotten by time....

youve still yet to name any top black fighters that ross didnt fight during his time. you keep dancing around it.

even without these mystical black fighters that ross supposedly didnt fight, hes still greater than Holyfield. deal with it

[Sugar Adam Ali]

youve still yet to name any top black fighters that ross didnt fight during his time. you keep dancing around it.

even without these mystical black fighters that ross supposedly didnt fight, hes still greater than Holyfield. deal with it

like i said in my post,, who cant name them because they were never written about and none of us were around,,,

Just use some deductive knowledge,,, obviously black guys fought back,,,
Just name the 10 best black fighters from lightweight-thru welter,,,,
Not matter if they were top ten,, just name 10 black guys from those weight classes...
Just name the top 10 black fighters at those weight classes..
You cant because your knowledge only extends to what you have read,,, not actual experiences and memories,,

I could ask you to name the top black fighters from those weight classes in the 70's and most guys on here could rattle off 25,30, 50 legit fighters, maybe not the best guys in the world but you would have no problem rattling off names,,
Now just switch the decade from 70's to 30's and your all scurrying to boxrec to do some searches, because you have no idea,,,, you didnt live then, and your only going by what you read, and others have told you......

So yes, guys then fought limited opposition,,, What international prime fighters did Ross beat,,, ever fight the UK champ, African champ, German champ, australian champ, canadian champ,
One poster said "see there was latino and black champs,, look at Battling shaw, yet did ross fight him,,,,

Most of ross' career is made up of young terry and babe ruth,,,
Take away the mcclarin and canzorni fights,, what do you have left,,,
beat up a small shot gans,, garcia was a one trick pony, probably similar to mayorga and baldomir,, guys you werent that elite yet won lineal titles,,,
Cashed out vs Armstrong the first legit black guy he fought and got pounded, and thats a fact

Who did he beat,, washed up names,, and some guys just like him,,, Im not sold on these guys being that much greater than a holyfield who fought everyone.... Take away his heavyweight career, and he is still had great fights at cruiser,, take away cruiser and he would still have fights over tyson, bowe, lennox. moorer, toney, etc...

For real-- Take away mcclarin, and canzori off Ross resume,, then take whatever 2 fighters you want off Holy's resume,,,,, Take tyson and bowe off his resume, and he still is undisputed cruiser champ, still heavy champ, wins over moorer, mercer, foreman, ruiz, holmes

What is ross left after mcclarin and canzori are taken off his resume,,,, he aint got nothing but washed up names like gans,,,

So you guys get hyped because you read how good ross was and the battles were epic, but whose to say they just werent some gatti level fighters, that would get beatdown if they fought a prime black guy like what armstrong did to ross,,, He didnt look to great in that fight,,

[GRboxing]

youre saying one too many "Pretty sure"s and "Probablys" in your posts. Please come back and try again next time.

Ross is greater than Holyfield. Youre just trying to cheapen Ross' resume because youre biased.

[IronDanHamza]

The conversation has gone away from the topic.

The topic is who is greater between the two.

The answer is Barney Ross.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

youre saying one too many "Pretty sure"s and "Probablys" in your posts. Please come back and try again next time.

Ross is greater than Holyfield. Youre just trying to cheapen Ross' resume because youre biased.

No not really,,

Do exactly what i said,, take off mccalrin and canzorni and tell me what Ross resume is,,,

I will even let you take 2 names off holyfields resume,,, any 2 names you want...

You never answer my questions,, I already stated that that we will never now about some guys,,,,

What makes you think Ross is so much better,,, He got beatup by armstrong in his legit fight not named mcclarin or canzori....

Please explain why you think he is that great,,, beating up old washed out names,, and having zero legit international competition,,, Do you think Sven ottke is great,,, No because we all dog him out,,
but no one dogs out Ross because nobody can critically think, and everyone one of you guys only knows what you read about...

Were you there,,
Did you see Ross fight,,,,
How do you know he is just a gatti level fighter,,,


ANd please you say gans, yet i refute it and ask you info on gans and you cant even respond,,, Just act like you never mentioned old, washed out, end of his career gans, as a legit win for Ross....

im not dancing around your questions,,, I have several posts where i say i dont know exact names,,, But you cant even name 10 legit black fighters from that era over 3 divisions,,,,,
You guys all act like you know everything and are filled with wisdom but in reality all you know is what people tell you,,,

Thats why you cant name any legit black lightweight-welters during that era,, because they werent publicized, so they aren tin you copy of RING 100...


I would respect a poster alot, if someone could come here and rattle of ten legit black fighters from those weghts and eras and could actually say why about it,,,

Im 100% sure there was black lightweights-welters in the 30's... Can someone please name some and i will shut up....

But in reality, nobody will because nobody knows anything about the divisions back then, only knew whatcha read 80 years later,,,,

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The conversation has gone away from the topic.

The topic is who is greater between the two.

The answer is Barney Ross.

Yes it has gone off topic,,,,

I just cant rate any of those old school guys,,

honestly i dont think there is that much of difference between Ross and holy..

Both good and tough,,,, I dont think you can say that ross' resume is so superior, when the dude never fought any international fighters of note,,, like Battling shaw first lineal hispanic champ at lightweight,, or anyone of note from say australia, europe, south america, africa, japan, canada,,

Not trying to say he is a bum but really take off canzori and mcclarin and your left with alot of young terry, and babe ruth fights,, unless you count washed up, past prime gans,, or the loss to armstrong,,,

You can take any 2 names you want off holyfield's resume and he would still be a HOFer,, take mcclarin and canzori off Ross resume and he doesnt have much

[GRboxing]

Yes it has gone off topic,,,,

I just cant rate any of those old school guys,,

honestly i dont think there is that much of difference between Ross and holy..

Both good and tough,,,, I dont think you can say that ross' resume is so superior, when the dude never fought any international fighters of note,,, like Battling shaw first lineal hispanic champ at lightweight,, or anyone of note from say australia, europe, south america, africa, japan, canada,,

Not trying to say he is a bum but really take off canzori and mcclarin and your left with alot of young terry, and babe ruth fights,, unless you count washed up, past prime gans,, or the loss to armstrong,,,

You can take any 2 names you want off holyfield's resume and he would still be a HOFer,, take mcclarin and canzori off Ross resume and he doesnt have much

No one in here is taking your opinion seriously. just stop

[IronDanHamza]

Yes it has gone off topic,,,,

I just cant rate any of those old school guys,,

honestly i dont think there is that much of difference between Ross and holy..

Both good and tough,,,, I dont think you can say that ross' resume is so superior, when the dude never fought any international fighters of note,,, like Battling shaw first lineal hispanic champ at lightweight,, or anyone of note from say australia, europe, south america, africa, japan, canada,,

Not trying to say he is a bum but really take off canzori and mcclarin and your left with alot of young terry, and babe ruth fights,, unless you count washed up, past prime gans,, or the loss to armstrong,,,

You can take any 2 names you want off holyfield's resume and he would still be a HOFer,, take mcclarin and canzori off Ross resume and he doesnt have much

Well, Canzoneri and McLarnin are really big names for a resume. Both ATG's and better than anything Holyfield has.

Even then, take them off he has Petrolle, Garica, and plenty of other ranked contenders.

Let's for arguments sake take Bowe and Qawi off Holyfiels resume then look how much thinner it looks. Take anyone's 2 top wins off their resume then it looks a lot thinner.

Let's just not take any names off. It's clear that Ross certainly has the better resume.

[Bolo Punch]

like i said in my post,, who cant name them because they were never written about and none of us were around,,,

Hmm, so you haven't actually researched to try and find anyone? You're so set that your argument is the correct one based on assumption, rather than actual facts?

I'd say that the majority of fighters in history have some sort of documentation on them. Certainly anyone that would have the tools to beat an ATG like Barney Ross won't now be anonymous. Read a book or something.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Well, Canzoneri and McLarnin are really big names for a resume. Both ATG's and better than anything Holyfield has.

Even then, take them off he has Petrolle, Garica, and plenty of other ranked contenders.

Let's for arguments sake take Bowe and Qawi off Holyfiels resume then look how much thinner it looks. Take anyone's 2 top wins off their resume then it looks a lot thinner.

Let's just not take any names off. It's clear that Ross certainly has the better resume.

Holyfield would still have foreman, tyson twice, 2 fights with lewis, win over rahman, dokes, mercer, etc

Garcia was a joke,, Even mayorga and Baldomir and buster douglas were lineal champs,, those things happen,, And go by rankings, because those are never rigged,, Petrollle,, another italian,, great, thanks for making my point that is was closed,,,

Hmm, so you haven't actually researched to try and find anyone? You're so set that your argument is the correct one based on assumption, rather than actual facts?

I'd say that the majority of fighters in history have some sort of documentation on them. Certainly anyone that would have the tools to beat an ATG like Barney Ross won't now be anonymous. Read a book or something.

The majority of fighters have documentation,,, So langford and the black murderer row were the only guys ever blacklisted or frozen out over 50 year period,, Thats the only guys that have documentation when this subject comes up,, so by your logic those are the only guys,, because if not then the others would have had books on them,,, please is that your logic

Yeah actually i have researched it,,, ZERO international competitors for instance,,, Did he fight anyone with anyone, say the puerto rican lightweight champ, euro champ, african champ, australian champ,,, anybody,,, You say read a book,,, LOL because that is how you tell greatness,, Like i have said none of you guys know anything about the era except what you read,,,

Why dont you use some critical thinking skills,, and say thats odd,, No legit black fighters over a 3 division lineal champ resume,,Sport ran by the mob and had nothing but italian, *** and irish fighters in his weight class,, nobody but the same 3 or 4 names, Not 1 international champ,, 90% of his resume was bums like babe ruth, young terry, and older washed out fighters like baby gans,,, fought one legit in his prime black guy and got beat up by him

It doesnt take a genius/ just some critical thinking skills,,,,
Dempsey never fought a black guy... LOL
Johnson fought basically all white guys,,,
SRR had to wait for years to get a chance at a title,, and he is considered the GOAT
Act like everyone got a fair shake in those days,, that everything was on the up and up and your greats fought all comers and never got protected,,,,, Do you actually think that is what happened,,, Once again it comes back to critical thinking skills