Who is Greater: Evander Holyfield or Barney Ross?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So you don't have the answer?

You claim he avoided black fighters yet can't name anyone and settle with "They were hidden".

So why is it Armstrong wasn't? Why is that black fighters before Ross' time weren't? Is it that some were and some weren't?

You can't make a bold claim like Ross avoided black fighters when #1, he fought Armstrong and #2 You can't name a single black fighter he avoided.

So Ross fought one black guy that beat him up, in his last fight,, Yet he had 70 plus fights, and 3 lineal titles, and not one black guy on his resume,, that seems alittle fishy,,,, especially when black guys were fighting, and mexicans and ricans,, yet ross's resume is basically some bums and tough italians, ***s, irish guys....

I got a question for you my man. Lets just assume there were top black fighters in Ross' weight classes, why were they not given any press like the like the Gans, Langfords, Dixens, Johnsons, Wills, Jeanets, McVea's, or the black murderers row? I don't think their was some kind of conspiracy going on to keep them from the public eye so Ross would be seen as a greater fighter decades down the road.

Look at who they were connected to manager and promoter wise,,,
ANd how many title shots did langford get again,,, please remind me,,,
How many black guys did dempsey fight,, how many black guys did jack johnson defend against????
If you guys cant see that the sport was super corrupt and rigged back then, i dont know what to tell you,,,
To you really think there was no worthy black opponents in those days...
ALL you guys know is what you read,,,
If you never saw boxing,I could hype gatti up, tell you how great he is, show you the ward trilogy, dorin fight, leija fight,,, and you would believe he was an ATG...... Just because someone wrote it, and you read it,, and great matchmaking,,,,
Why do you think Gatti was considered an old school fighter,, he came out swinging and always engaged in a fight,,, just like the old-timers, difference is old-timers didnt fight a floyd mayweather or benitez or SRL...
Thats why when SRR hit the scene, he dominanted,,, Because the old-school type fighters were tough as nails but overly hyped....Couldnt deal with SRR's level of skills,,,
I cant believe others cant see it,,, It doesnt take a genius to come to this conclusion..
And once black, and latino and other foreign fighters got their chance as mob control was becoming less, you saw alot less great ***, italian, and irish fighters,,, yes there are still some, but none are dominating the game,,,

Can you imagine a guy today being a 3 divisional lineal champ and never fighting a black guy or latino challenger....

[JAB5239]

[

QUOTE=Sugar Adam Ali;13621600]Look at who they were connected to manager and promoter wise,,,
ANd how many title shots did langford get again,,, please remind me,,,
How many black guys did dempsey fight,, how many black guys did jack johnson defend against????

Don't you see the difference here? In those cases we KNOW who the black fighters were they should have fought. You're trying to say Ross should have fought lesser fighters because they were black and not ranked. That makes no sense.

If you guys cant see that the sport was super corrupt and rigged back then, i dont know what to tell you,,,

The sport is just as corrupt today. Maybe even more so now that there are more orgs with their hands in the cookie jar.

To you really think there was no worthy black opponents in those days...
ALL you guys know is what you read,,,

So name them all. Educate us with your infinite wisdom on all the great black fighters in Ross' weight class during his time there. This is much different than the Jeffries or Dempsey era's.

Can you imagine a guy today being a 3 divisional lineal champ and never fighting a black guy or latino challenger....

You're getting very close to crossing lines in this section that are not to be crossed. I like you man, so consider this fair warning,

[StarshipTrooper]

where did all the great italian, ***, and irish world champs go,,,

I can answer that real easy: The best fighters have always come out of poverty. The Italians, the ***s, and the Irish aren't dirt poor living in the ****** anymore like they were in the '20s and '30s.

Poet

[Sugar Adam Ali]

[

Don't you see the difference here? In those cases we KNOW who the black fighters were they should have fought. You're trying to say Ross should have fought lesser fighters because they were black and not ranked. That makes no sense.


The sport is just as corrupt today. Maybe even more so now that there are more orgs with their hands in the cookie jar.

YEs still corrupt, not going to dispute that, but with the internet and multiple tv outlets, its easier for a guy like darchiyan, donaire, GGG to get some recognition

So name them all. Educate us with your infinite wisdom on all the great black fighters in Ross' weight class during his time there. This is much different than the Jeffries or Dempsey era's.

There isnt that much difference between the eras, Dempsey was in the roaring 20's and ross and company were the 30's,, not much difference between oscar de la hoya's era and floyd mayweather,,, Its not like it was 30 or 40 years apart.... and both the 20's and 30's was controlled by the mob... Cant tell you the names of fighters dodged but their can be little doubt it happened, because they werent supported by the guys in charge namely the mob,,,, All we know was what was written down,,, nothing else,,, nobody knows who the top 10 rican lightweights were at the time, or what the best african fighters from ghana were,,, they didnt get publicity, and all our info from that era comes from publicity

You're getting very close to crossing lines in this section that are not to be crossed. I like you man, so consider this fair warning,

Not sure what line, im crossing,, I will heed the warning,, not trying to upset anyone or makes this a huge racial thing, but the fact of the matter is the guys today, especially top level guys from the past 40 years or so, have fought everyone from all different nations/regions of the world... Just look at all the different types of guys ali fought..

I can answer that real easy: The best fighters have always come out of poverty. The Italians, the ***s, and the Irish aren't dirt poor living in the ****** anymore like they were in the '20s and '30s.

Poet

So by your logic latino's and blacks werent in poverty because they werent good enough fighters to gain recognition,,, i dont think any race/nationality has a monopoly on poverty,,, Im pretty sure that every group has poverty..
Italian, ***s, and irish are what the fan base was, and the one that bought tickets, hence why it was good to just match up those guys,,, blacks in the 20's and 30's were very impoverished especially in and around major metro areas like chicago and NYC....

Im done writing about this,,, im not trying to be rude, or a troll or anything like that,,, Im just trying to explain my opinion on how and why i think fighters from the 1900's - 1960's are sometimes hyped as ATG's more than they should be, compared to guys from 60's 70' and 80's... the 90's was a decent era but todays boxers i think are becoming overated because of all the belts, mismatches, promotional wars, etc,,,

[GRboxing]

Ur the only one giving a crap about belts. maybe actually take a look at the fighters they beat.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Ur the only one giving a crap about belts. maybe actually take a look at the fighters they beat.

Yes i have looked at the fighters they beat,,, not one legit black guy, or latino

alot of ***s, italians, and irishmen.....

belts did mean something back then,,,,, its not like it is today with interm champs, regular champs, and super champs, and 4 different sanctioning bodies....

[Bolo Punch]

Your argument is very, very thin, Adam, and that isn't helped by you not stating any facts when you've been given the opportunity to do so several times; instead you'd rather throw around some empty and false claims for whatever reason.

Okay, I'll give you yet another opportunity to answer this one - specifically, which black fighters (or any other fighter of an ethnic minority) did Barney Ross avoid? And can I just say that if you aren't going to actually answer this question properly and instead throw around some more claims without substance or answer my question with a question of your own in some sort of "I know you are, but what am I?"-esque scenario then don't waste your time, because it won't have changed my opinion at all on the matter. Give me some facts, then we'll talk.

[GRboxing]

Yes i have looked at the fighters they beat,,, not one legit black guy, or latino

alot of ***s, italians, and irishmen.....

belts did mean something back then,,,,, its not like it is today with interm champs, regular champs, and super champs, and 4 different sanctioning bodies....

Apparently youve no idea who Baby Joe Gans is?

[bklynboy]

Yes i have looked at the fighters they beat,,, not one legit black guy, or latino

alot of ***s, italians, and irishmen.....

belts did mean something back then,,,,, its not like it is today with interm champs, regular champs, and super champs, and 4 different sanctioning bodies....

You make some interesting points in your discussions namely that not all ethnicities had an equal shot and that boxing was localized in NYC / the USA.


You ask where where the black fighters were. Is it possible that some were frozen out? Maybe for fighting for the title (esp heavyweight) but the evidence doesn't seem to be there at the lighter weights. You seem to forget that black and hispanic fighters fought and won championships: George Dixon, Joe Gans from 1900-1930s. By the 1930s Hispanic fighters started dominating the lower weights (bantamweight for example) Why would the mob (if you're correct) "allow" hispanics to beat Italians, Irish and ***ish fighters?

What upsets people is that you imply that Barney Ross did not fight the best fighters out there. There is no evidence for that. Furthermore there doesn't seem to be any evidence that promoters (mob based or otherwise) prevented black and hispanic fighters from competing. If Barney Ross didn't fight many black and hispanic fighters - maybe there weren't many available for him to fight. If you think he avoided black, hispanic, and other non-Anglo, Irish, Italian, ***ish fighters the burden is upon you to point out which fighters he avoided.

A quick look showed that there were latino champions
(http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/latino_champs.htm )

Jr. Welterweights (140 lbs)
Battling Shaw MEX Lineal 1933
Carlos Ortiz P.R. Lineal 1959

Lightweights (135 lbs)
Juan Zurita MEX NBA 1944
Lauro Salas MEX Lineal 1952

Jr. Lightweights (130 lbs)
Kid Chocolate CUB Lineal 1931

Featherweights (126 lbs)
Solly Smith MEX/US Lineal 1893
Kid Chocolate CUB NY 1932
Baby Arizmendi MEX NY 1934

Bantamweights (118 lbs)
Panama Al Brown PAN Lineal 1929
Sixto Escobar P.R. Lineal 1936
Manuel Ortiz ?/US Lineal 1942


Boxing is a poor man's sport. Middle-class kids, even those who like to fight, rarely become professional fighters. They have too many other opportunities to make money. Boxing is also a business (mob controlled or not) and customers have to be willing to spend money (go to the arena; watch PPV; bet on or against a fighter) for the fight to be made.

Boxing (I'm talking about professional boxing - not fighting, or Muay Thai, or akido, or capoeira, or all the other martial arts) was primarily an Anglo-American sport. It spread from from a few centers (namely England and NY) and slowly stretched around the world. It's only been in the last twenty years or so that basically the whole world has been aware of professional boxing and able to compete professionally.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Apparently youve no idea who Baby Joe Gans is?

I know that ross fought him at the tail end of his career when gans already had like 20+ losses and ross was like his 23, and that gans was a shell of his prime self,,,,
Your like a poster from 80 years from now saying,, Calzaghe beat everyone, look he beat roy jones,,,, Beating past prime fighters as one of your big wins isnt a huge accomplishment in my book,,, Quick name the fighters Gans went on and beat after ross fight...

You make some interesting points in your discussions namely that not all ethnicities had an equal shot and that boxing was localized in NYC / the USA.


You ask where where the black fighters were. Is it possible that some were frozen out? Maybe for fighting for the title (esp heavyweight) but the evidence doesn't seem to be there at the lighter weights. You seem to forget that black and hispanic fighters fought and won championships: George Dixon, Joe Gans from 1900-1930s. By the 1930s Hispanic fighters started dominating the lower weights (bantamweight for example) Why would the mob (if you're correct) "allow" hispanics to beat Italians, Irish and ***ish fighters?

What upsets people is that you imply that Barney Ross did not fight the best fighters out there. There is no evidence for that. Furthermore there doesn't seem to be any evidence that promoters (mob based or otherwise) prevented black and hispanic fighters from competing. If Barney Ross didn't fight many black and hispanic fighters - maybe there weren't many available for him to fight. If you think he avoided black, hispanic, and other non-Anglo, Irish, Italian, ***ish fighters the burden is upon you to point out which fighters he avoided.

A quick look showed that there were latino champions
(http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/latino_champs.htm )

Jr. Welterweights (140 lbs)
Battling Shaw MEX Lineal 1933
Carlos Ortiz P.R. Lineal 1959

Lightweights (135 lbs)
Juan Zurita MEX NBA 1944
Lauro Salas MEX Lineal 1952

Jr. Lightweights (130 lbs)
Kid Chocolate CUB Lineal 1931

Featherweights (126 lbs)
Solly Smith MEX/US Lineal 1893
Kid Chocolate CUB NY 1932
Baby Arizmendi MEX NY 1934

Bantamweights (118 lbs)
Panama Al Brown PAN Lineal 1929
Sixto Escobar P.R. Lineal 1936
Manuel Ortiz ?/US Lineal 1942


Boxing is a poor man's sport. Middle-class kids, even those who like to fight, rarely become professional fighters. They have too many other opportunities to make money. Boxing is also a business (mob controlled or not) and customers have to be willing to spend money (go to the arena; watch PPV; bet on or against a fighter) for the fight to be made.

Boxing (I'm talking about professional boxing - not fighting, or Muay Thai, or akido, or capoeira, or all the other martial arts) was primarily an Anglo-American sport. It spread from from a few centers (namely England and NY) and slowly stretched around the world. It's only been in the last twenty years or so that basically the whole world has been aware of professional boxing and able to compete professionally.

You actually have a very good post,, but look at when gans got his shot at ross,, at the very tail end of his career,,, he was way past his prime,,,
ANd yes latinos started winning at the superlow weights,,, but none of the italian, ***, irish fighters, fought in those super low weight classes,, majority of them fought at featherweight or higher,,, and Ross, Canzorni, Mcclarin were the money guys of the lower weights,,,,,

Do you think Langford and black murderers row were the only guys to be frozen out,,,,,
Jackie robinson was the first black player in baseball in the 40's,,, yet still many black ballplayers got dodged,,, Same thing with boxing a decade earlier,,, Yes you could have a black champ like johnson, but he was one of the very lucky few to get a shot,,, and then langford couldnt get any shots and was avoided like the plague,,,

Look the crowds in NYC were italian, ***, irish fans,, much like how today especially in america its popular with Mexican and ricans,,, hence why you see every mexican/rican prospect get hyped to the moon like the dulorme, the guy darchiyan beat up, i think his name was perez, while guys like brad solomon and shawn porter etc dont get any tv exposure,,, why is that,, because mexicans, ricans are huge supporters of the fights,,,, Same way back in the day in the 30's....
Just look at how many fights SRR had before he got a title shot at welter,,,

At you make good points about latino champs but look at battling shaw,, lineal champ in 1933 but did he get to fight ross,,, Nope....

And i am sure in ross' era there was a european champ, germany champ, Caribbean champ, canadian champ, puerto rican champ, australian champ, african champ, south american champ,, and how many of those guys did he fight???? pretty much zero, thru 3 lineal championships over 3 divisions,,,, Yet people claim he fought everyone,,, Because they recognized the names that were written about...

Quick name the top 10 black fighters from Ross' era in the lightweight, jr welter, welter,, Just name the top 10 black guys in those divisions,,, regardless if they were top ranked or not,, just name the top black guys from that era,,,, People will name baby gans and henry armstrong because those are the 2 that are written about the most,,, Im pretty sure they arent the only blacks fighting,,,, go ahead and name the top black fighters, from the 1920-1940 at lightweight, jr welter, welter,, you wont because they dont talk about it in the books you read, and arent on name fighters resume, so you have no clue,, people hadnt heard of hopkins til superlate in his career, if he was in the 20's n 30's era you may have never heard of him....

IMO its hard to judge guys from this era, since none of us lived thru it,, we can just go by what people wrote in newspaper articles,, its not like today with the internet and multiple tv outlets covering the sport,,,, the sport was obviously corrupt and slanted towards mafia fighters,,, Black guys had to wait years to get a crack at the title,, Just look at SRR and how long he had to wait and that was a decade+ after ross' era,,,

i always breakdown boxing in 3 eras,,,

old school- 1900's-1960's
TV era-1960's-1990's
PPV era 1990's-present....

Very easy to compare fighters from the same era, but nearly impossible to compare a guy from the 30's to a guy fighting in the 90's..
Thats why i think people overhype the greatness of the guys from the old school era,,, You have no context, just a record book, and some cheesy newspaper articles,,, Without context your missing a whole lot...

To say these guys fought everyone possible is crazy,,, You dont even know anything about what was going on back then except for what you read about,, There is just too much overwhelming evidence that shows that black guys werent given a fair shake over a long 5+ decades time frame,, it wasnt till the 60's that boxing was fully integrated...

Thats my honest opinion,, i laid out my logic behind it,,, I know i cant name names, but you guys cant name any legit black guys in their prime that ross fought even though he was a 3 division lineal champ.....

I just think there were many fighters lost in history during that era that we will never hear about, and have been forgotten by time....