Joe Frazier vs Prime Evander Holyfield

[billeau2]

He did use facts when he cited Holyfield beating Frazier or Ali due to "evolution". And we all now how much evolution there was in the 20 years between the start of their careers!

Of course this is assuming that PED's are a form of evolution.

yes of course the ole evolution argument (maxwell smart voice)...

[GOD-FR33]

Watch your mouth....

Watch your mouth, man. I am not the one. The only "fact" I believe is that Holyfield is more skilled than Frazier. Who would disagree with that? It's not even close, actually. And you're right, we are giving opinions/thoughts BUT some things are common sense. Holyfield being the more skilled fighter is one of them.

[Anthony342]

I totally agree,,, Holyfield would always beat tyson,, from the amateur sparring sessions at olympic trials, to late 80s, early 90s, pre-jail, post-jail, right now this very day,,, Evander just was a better fighter than Tyson and his style would always trump tyson..

I can agree with that, but if they're both in their prime, even though Holyfield still wins, I think the fight is a lot more competitive and could even go the distance.

[Panthershock]

ok wow! great comments on this thread....this thread reminds me why I post here in occasion:

First off lets look at a few different things than have already been said because a lot has been said!

Aint no way in this or any of the six worlds that Holy, or any heavyweight counters Frazier...You would be an idiot to try because he will keep mauling you. Even a guy like Joe Louis who had the technique to do it would probably prefer to try for a Ko after initiating the action....thats how you beat Frazier. And good as Holly is he is no counter puncher on that order necessary to stop a fellow swarmer.

Holly is indeed a swarmer and a volume guy....a presser but does not have the body punching ability that Frazier has. They both press but frazier has more legitimate weapons to the body which is where they will wind up often enough, given that they are both swarmers.

Holly can be his own worse enemy. He was better against Bowe and Tyson when he laid off a bit and boxed in spurts....He wouldn't be able to do this against Frazier because as said he would get drawn into a battle royale

Holly is physically stronger....hard to imagine anyone outworking him but, Joe might could do it! Joe has better technique and strong as Holly is, he aint strong as Forman was, so he aint beating Joe that way.

I think in a 15 rounder Joe gets the nod

because at the end of the day Joe was a better body guy, was perhaps at least if not more relentless, hit a bit harder, was better defensively (head bob) and because Evander showed that a slow handed tough heavy could tag him (Bowe)....and lets face it while neither guy was ever going to win the Pernell Whitaker award for D....Joe was prolly a little better defensively than Holly.

pretty much sums up my view

yes Holyfield had the ability to win fights by outboxing you, Frazier did not possess that type of skillset. I don't think this matters in this instance because Holyfield would not have been able to stop the constant swarming of Frazier by boxing him.

Inevitably it ends up at very close quarters and Frazier has the advantage there

[billeau2]

Watch your mouth, man. I am not the one. The only "fact" I believe is that Holyfield is more skilled than Frazier. Who would disagree with that? It's not even close, actually. And you're right, we are giving opinions/thoughts BUT some things are common sense. Holyfield being the more skilled fighter is one of them.

Jesus H christ!!!!! thats NOT A FACT!!!! Do you get it?!!!! Even your sentence SHoWS YOU that it in an opinion....Your words right? pay attention:

GodFR33 says "The only FACT I BELIEVE is..... A belief is not a fact. It is based on faith and or opinion. Nothing wrong with that but this generation has forgot how to think logically and we need people to think straight!!!!

If I say that Butter Bean is better than Tyson than it is absurd, but it is not untrue. It is not untrue because it cannot be true. I can choose to butress this argument with facts that are either true or not true which is the basis for a decent argument and what you have not done.

Common sense?
No. The nice thing about this topic is that it is quite debatable as to who would win a match between Holyfield and Frazier. As a matter of fact you might try to give an instance (factual) where you prove Holyfield is stronger and more resilant than Joe: Holyfield lost to Bowe in a sluggout, Frazier obviiously lost to Foreman twice that way.... But Holyfield only beat Bowe by boxing him and most people do not think Bowe was the fighter that big george was!

Holyfield also did not fight 15 rounds pressing the way Joe did and never could press a boxer like Frazier did Ali. Toney boxed Holly's sox off and so did Lewis. Moore also outboxed Holly the first time out....Frazier, unlike Holly could pressure a decent boxer.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Jesus H christ!!!!! thats NOT A FACT!!!! Do you get it?!!!! Even your sentence SHoWS YOU that it in an opinion....Your words right? pay attention:

GodFR33 says "The only FACT I BELIEVE is..... A belief is not a fact. It is based on faith and or opinion. Nothing wrong with that but this generation has forgot how to think logically and we need people to think straight!!!!

If I say that Butter Bean is better than Tyson than it is absurd, but it is not untrue. It is not untrue because it cannot be true. I can choose to butress this argument with facts that are either true or not true which is the basis for a decent argument and what you have not done.

Common sense?
No. The nice thing about this topic is that it is quite debatable as to who would win a match between Holyfield and Frazier. As a matter of fact you might try to give an instance (factual) where you prove Holyfield is stronger and more resilant than Joe: Holyfield lost to Bowe in a sluggout, Frazier obviiously lost to Foreman twice that way.... But Holyfield only beat Bowe by boxing him and most people do not think Bowe was the fighter that big george was!

Holyfield also did not fight 15 rounds pressing the way Joe did and never could press a boxer like Frazier did Ali. Toney boxed Holly's sox off and so did Lewis. Moore also outboxed Holly the first time out....Frazier, unlike Holly could pressure a decent boxer.

Understand what your saying, but i wouldnt use the toney, lennox, and even the moorer fight to highlight evander's career,, he was pretty much past it by the moorer fight...
Holyfield was prime from 86-93,, the 2 bowe fights really took alot out of him, and also the dokes war, bert cooper, foreman shots, and all the cruiser wars.... Thats the holyfield to use in this scenario, not the semi retired, aging champ... It would be like using frazier from the foreman rematch or jumbo fight....

[GOD-FR33]

Exactly.....

Good post. You can throw in the Larry Donald fight, The Ruiz fights, and the Chris Byrd fight. None of them beat a Holyfield with life in him. He was OLD. Period. This is how I know that this guy is biased or just want to argue. Who would bring up past prime fights? Truth is, Evander has seen "swarmers", brawlers, boxers, punchers, etc his entire career. Frazier wouldn't have shown him anything new. Frazier was tough as nails, he had great stamina, and a great beard. SO WHAT!!!!!! So did Evander and he was the more versatile fighter. Last time I checked, you don't BREAK Holyfield down. If you can't BREAK him as Frazier would need to do, you can't win. Matter of fact, I think Holyfield would hurt Frazier more than Frazier would hurt him because he was taller and stronger. It hurts more when someone punches down at or on you because of leverage. He knew how to punch down on opponents.

[billeau2]

Understand what your saying, but i wouldnt use the toney, lennox, and even the moorer fight to highlight evander's career,, he was pretty much past it by the moorer fight...
Holyfield was prime from 86-93,, the 2 bowe fights really took alot out of him, and also the dokes war, bert cooper, foreman shots, and all the cruiser wars.... Thats the holyfield to use in this scenario, not the semi retired, aging champ... It would be like using frazier from the foreman rematch or jumbo fight....

You mean like the Frazier I mentioned in the two Foreman fights he was ploughed in?"
I was careful to use both guys in their entirety which....BTW would seem to favor Holyfield who had many more later succeses than smokin' Joe.

Certainly one could use a prime versus prime comparison but frankly that gives so much less material and a good deal of the real deals prime was spent as a cruiser anyhow! Also heres another factor to consider: when Holyfield wanted to he beat Moore pretty easily. That would suggest that he was not so past it, but rather that Moore had exposed a weakness Holy had against a boxer who was good enough to avoid his pressure, swarming attack...and Moore was that good a boxer (in his division at least).

You see where I am going with this? it means that Holly could still put it together but was not always succesful where as Joe Frazier fought and pressured one of the greatest boxers ever on several occasions. This would suggest that Frazier was even a more relentless pressure fighter than Holly was, hence that is why I used their whole careers. If you don't then you have to take away Hollyfield's win over Tyson...remember that!!

[billeau2]

Good post. You can throw in the Larry Donald fight, The Ruiz fights, and the Chris Byrd fight. None of them beat a Holyfield with life in him. He was OLD. Period. This is how I know that this guy is biased or just want to argue. Who would bring up past prime fights? Truth is, Evander has seen "swarmers", brawlers, boxers, punchers, etc his entire career. Frazier wouldn't have shown him anything new. Frazier was tough as nails, he had great stamina, and a great beard. SO WHAT!!!!!! So did Evander and he was the more versatile fighter. Last time I checked, you don't BREAK Holyfield down. If you can't BREAK him as Frazier would need to do, you can't win. Matter of fact, I think Holyfield would hurt Frazier more than Frazier would hurt him because he was taller and stronger. It hurts more when someone punches down at or on you because of leverage. He knew how to punch down on opponents.

Its true that guys a real @hole, expecting you to give examples for such creative reenactments as the fatal downward Holly special that would be delivered to a bobbing, weaving, pressing Frazier.

Yeah that guy what a piece of work...expecting you to actually describe what fight occurance(s) would suggest that Holyfields versatility would threaten Joe Frazier.....

People like that guy are a real pain in the genitials!! with their insipid requests to provide examples of statements that would seem to make no sense!!!

Here here!!!! but listen don't let that @holes idiocy get in the way I agree Hollyfield is better and you know why? BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!!

[Scott9945]

Good post. You can throw in the Larry Donald fight, The Ruiz fights, and the Chris Byrd fight. None of them beat a Holyfield with life in him. He was OLD. Period. This is how I know that this guy is biased or just want to argue. Who would bring up past prime fights? Truth is, Evander has seen "swarmers", brawlers, boxers, punchers, etc his entire career. Frazier wouldn't have shown him anything new. Frazier was tough as nails, he had great stamina, and a great beard. SO WHAT!!!!!! So did Evander and he was the more versatile fighter. Last time I checked, you don't BREAK Holyfield down. If you can't BREAK him as Frazier would need to do, you can't win. Matter of fact, I think Holyfield would hurt Frazier more than Frazier would hurt him because he was taller and stronger. It hurts more when someone punches down at or on you because of leverage. He knew how to punch down on opponents.

You do realize that almost all of Frazier's opponents were taller than him. And all of them not named Foreman got hurt. If you're talking about Lennox or Klitschko the height is a factor. But Holyfield wasn't nearly that tall. And Frazier would be even stronger than Holyfield if he was as juiced up on roids and HGH as Evan Fields was.