Who had better boxing fundamentals Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones jr

[Sugarj]

No, they were diminished. As this video will show its his lack of fundamentals, diminished (but still faster than Tarvers) reflexes and willingness to lay on the ropes that cost him the fight. Had he a FUNDAMENTALLY better defense he could have won this fight. Had he a fundamentally better defense he could have beaten Lebedev, who's reflexes his own were better than.

Roy did win the first fight with Tarver Jab.

[RubenSonny]

Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.

So you don't think it had anything to do with the fact Roy was 35 and had already started slipping years earlier, riiight.

[JAB5239]

Roy did win the first fight with Tarver Jab.

I know my friend, but it was the first time his lack of fundamentals caught up with him in my opinion.

[SCtrojansbaby]

Jab, when your reflexes and punch resistance go anybodies fundamentals are going to look bad. If you can't counter punch and can't take a punch nothing is going to help you

Also no way in hell can you watch those fights and thing Roy's reflexes are better than Tarvers(or Johnson's or Calzaghe's etc etc). There is a reason why Roy all of sudden looks like its 1995 again when he's fighting Lacy(bum) and Trinidad(more washed up than Roy).

[Sugarj]

I know my friend, but it was the first time his lack of fundamentals caught up with him in my opinion.

True, thanks for posting up the vid. I'd originally scored that one for Jones like two of the judges, but watching it again in silence this afternoon I must admit........I scored it a draw. I agree about it being the first time his lack of fundamentals making him look vulnerable.

Roy was nothing like as good as he was against Woods or Ruiz earlier that year.

[- Ram Raid -]

I agree that we've got to take into account that there is no concrete right or wrong way to box. . . for the 'gifted' few. If we put that kind of constraint on it then we don't have either of these fighters, who were both extraordinary. If we go for some kind of standard orthodox teaching of boxing as a martial art however, even allowing for technical variations and styles, as it is taught and practiced in gyms across the globe, then I'm not even sure that what Roy Jones Jr used to do in the ring constitutes boxing . . . as a martial art. When the physical abilities waned, and the fighters had no choice but to apply to some degree, the fundamentals of the noble art of self defence, Ali could adapt. Jones is still trying to rely on physical capabilities that are no longer there. So for me Ali had the better fundamentals.

[Kid McCoy]

Thats why I focused on the Green fight, where Roy's punch resistance was comparable to dainty porceline, I'm certain that even I have held harder punches than that one without ill effect.

That was clear evidence that his chin had declined further than the Tarver fights. He took what looked like much harder punches from Montel Griffin in their first fight than he did against Green or Lebedev, who have stopped him recently. In Tarver 3 Jones certainly took harder blows than Green or Lebedev hit him with too.

The Tarver punch in fight 2 was good, I don't doubt that it might have knocked out many other light heavyweights too. Likewise, the Glen Johnson punch was pretty nasty.

But I think there is fairly clear evidence that punch resistance can decline in a fighter. You can blame it on a number of things; age, decades of headblows (severe or not), weightmaking......who knows?

I'm not dis*****g that Roy's punch resistance has gone now. All I'm saying is I'm skeptical that it suddenly disintegrated after Ruiz because we don't know if he ever could take a punch like in Tarver 2. His speed and reflexes were such that he didn't usually have to. He did take some shots against Griffin but Griffin wasn't really a puncher. It's not like a Saad Muhammad who proved he could absorb loads of punishment in his prime but by the end of his career he was being knocked out left and right, when the hundreds of wars he'd been in just caught up with him.

[Sugarj]

I'm not dis*****g that Roy's punch resistance has gone now. All I'm saying is I'm skeptical that it suddenly disintegrated after Ruiz because we don't know if he ever could take a punch like in Tarver 2. His speed and reflexes were such that he didn't usually have to. He did take some shots against Griffin but Griffin wasn't really a puncher. It's not like a Saad Muhammad who proved he could absorb loads of punishment in his prime but by the end of his career he was being knocked out left and right, when the hundreds of wars he'd been in just caught up with him.

I'll be honest, I can't think of a shot quite as obviously hard as the Tarver one. As I said in an earlier post it may well have knocked out a good few light heavyweights. But next time out Jones looked fragile again against Glen Johnson, who we all know isn't really a noted puncher.....at least not in world class. From then on, his chin has just got steadily worse.

The thing is, other than the shot that decked him against Del Valle (which to my eyes didn't look that hard.....and Roy didn't seem particularly stunned) no one had even so much as seen Roy on 'clear street' staggering round the ring in a daze. Griffin as you say wasn't as big a puncher as Tarver, but there was very little effect in Jones when he did land cleanly. Likewise; Hopkins, Toney, Brannon, Hill and Ruiz all landed cleanly too......obviously with lesser punches than Tarver, but again with not even so much as a stagger from Jones.

You'd have thought that there would be a few clues to a weak or average chin along the 15 year way. But there wasn't.

Perhaps Tarver's punch really was that good. It may well have ruined Jones's punch resistance for good (but hell, I'm not a neurosurgeon!!). Or perhaps even shedding 10Lbs at age 35 can have a profound effect on punch resistance!

[THE REED]

The picture perfect left hayemaker hook that Tarver caught Roy with directly on the chin.. would knock down just about anyone..

Drop two weight classes at 35 years old on top of it... Not many people would stay standing.

[- Ram Raid -]

'Roy could razzle and dazzle with the best of them. Almost as hard to hit as Will-o'-the-Wisp Willie Pep. Through his career he boxed like a man obsessed with the idea that getting hit was an unacceptable afront to his dignity. In the ring against the best in the division he was immaculate. Some of us wondered what would happen if an opponent finally broke through that elaborate defence and smacked him one. Now we know. . . . we'll remember Roy Jones as the classiest boxer of the modern era, but also with the glassiest chin' - Budd Schulberg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . A little harsh perhaps, but maybe the guys right.