Who had better boxing fundamentals Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones jr

[JAB5239]

obviously you know something we dont, so why dont you just spit it out and say why you think reflexes is directly related to a fighters legs?

You haven't answered my question, what is responsible for movement?

Have you ever had a friend kidding around a throw a punch meant to startle you? What happens? Your hands shoot up to protect yourself. Those are reflexes. Im not a doctor but Im going to go out on a limb and say the same thing applies for legs. If you've ever fought for any amount of time you will know that When you're in the ring you don't think duck, move or put your hands up when attacked. You do it because it is a conditioned reaction. Reactions are regulated by reflexes.

and toney is fundemental? the philly shell is fundemental? i always thought the fundemental guard would be both hands up, not virtually the same stance as roy "no fundementals" jones jnr, but i suppose you're gonna say how toney jabs
toney is still good because he doesn't need legs for his style, shoulder roll is just that, shoulder roll

Lol! Yeah, Toney is just the Philly shell and a shoulder roll!

and you're not comprehending, i never said roy looked good vs lebedev, we aren't gauging the performances, i was explaining how roy's reaction time is still fairly sharp, but then look at his leaping left hooks and how fast he can jump back(something i noticed leading up to the danny green fight), it's all very slow

Reaction time is how long it takes the brain to process something and send a message to the muscles. The muscles than have a reflex response. So if you're claiming Roy's reaction time is still fairly sharp than you've made my case for me about reflexes. Thank you.

oh and a great example of great chin(not saying roy's chin was great) to china chin is chuck liddell

Since you brought it up, isn't it ironic that Both Jones and Liddell are the same age and started getting their lights turned out regularly around the same time? Reflexes my man, reflexes. How many times have we heard a fighter past his best explain after a loss how he could see the punches coming and knew exactly what he was supposed to do but his body just didn't react fast enough? In other words the brain sent the message to the muscles but the reflexes just weren't cooperating.

[Spartacus Sully]

they both had **** fundamentals.

reflexes rely on gym time.

if you cant spend hours honing your reflexes sparring every week, your reflexs are going to be ****.

[SplitSecond]

no no

this doesn't explain what i've been saying, if he still has the reflexes to counter sharply and the speed to throw blinding combo's but is slow to leap with a hook and pull back like in his prime how is that reflexes and simply not skeletal muscle degeneration on one of the most abused muscles in the body?

how many 36 year olds have we seen with great foot speed and explosivness?
and the way you talk you it's as if slower reflexes/reaction time = glass chin
which although yea, reflexes is basically attributed to just about everything but you're also forgetting my example where if roy is laying on the ropes he can still make you miss(although obviously his reflexes now are slower)

and roy also has stamina issues now, will you also say reflexes or could it be age even though he might be(trying) to train and workout as much as he did in his prime?

i said age because i dont want to pretend like i know anything about how muscles work, although i remember reading about how we lose the fast type 2B myofibres slowly

so basically could it be that the body is sending the signals but simply doesn't have the strenght/bounce on the legs?
and the drop in hormones like testosterone that fill you with all the energy and competitive juices that has older boxers burn out(also helps with muscle growth and strenght)

because think about it, i could have the boxing knowledge of a life time, but if my muscles are not in the shape to perform what my reflexes remember and want then im not gonna be of much use


P.S to an extent you do think about how you will react when you see a punch, you can choose you're reaction most definitely, you can even decide how fast you wish to accelerate to move out of the way, but if you dont meet the requirements to get out of the way, you're not going to get out of the way

[IMDAZED]

Considering I watched Ali-Frazier 3 with my father I think I've been watching boxing plenty long enough to understand the sport and draw logical assumptions. But that is neither here nor there. I never said Roy's chin wasn't tested, every fighters chin gets tested. Im also not saying Roy had a glass chin. But when his reflexes diminished he had a hard time taking a good punch and recovering. Can ANYONE say as a fact that if he never had those reflexes he wouldn't have been stopped sooner in his career? My basis for that is he wasn't a solid fundamental fighter. And had he not had those super human reflexes he would have been getting hit much more and much harder fighting the way he did.

He took plenty of big shots against Tarver in their first bout and didn't fold. It happens. If you're point is that he was stopped because he got old, yeah, you're right. Happens to everyone.

[JAB5239]

no no

this doesn't explain what i've been saying, if he still has the reflexes to counter sharply and the speed to throw blinding combo's but is slow to leap with a hook and pull back like in his prime how is that reflexes and simply not skeletal muscle degeneration on one of the most abused muscles in the body?

how many 36 year olds have we seen with great foot speed and explosivness?
and the way you talk you it's as if slower reflexes/reaction time = glass chin
which although yea, reflexes is basically attributed to just about everything but you're also forgetting my example where if roy is laying on the ropes he can still make you miss(although obviously his reflexes now are slower)

and roy also has stamina issues now, will you also say reflexes or could it be age even though he might be(trying) to train and workout as much as he did in his prime?

i said age because i dont want to pretend like i know anything about how muscles work, although i remember reading about how we lose the fast type 2B myofibres slowly

so basically could it be that the body is sending the signals but simply doesn't have the strenght/bounce on the legs?
and the drop in hormones like testosterone that fill you with all the energy and competitive juices that has older boxers burn out(also helps with muscle growth and strenght)

because think about it, i could have the boxing knowledge of a life time, but if my muscles are not in the shape to perform what my reflexes remember and want then im not gonna be of much use


P.S to an extent you do think about how you will react when you see a punch, you can choose you're reaction most definitely, you can even decide how fast you wish to accelerate to move out of the way, but if you dont meet the requirements to get out of the way, you're not going to get out of the way

My man, the only thing I am getting at is Jones has slowed down and gets hit more. Can we agree to this? If we can than you have to concede the possibility that without his prime speed, reflexes, reaction time or whatever he could have been getting knocked out earlier in his career. I don't think either of us are doctor's so Im not trying to get in a physiology debate. You make good points and you're a good poster, I just don't see us getting anywhere.

PS - to answer the question of how many 36 year olds have I seen with great foot speed and explosiveness? Off hand the only one that comes to mind is Sergio Martinez. Im not entirely sure that is all natural either. Im sure there are others, but generally fighters start losing a step in their early to mid 30's.

[kendom]

I hope nobody was offended by this question.. i wasn't trying to suggest in any way that they way Ali and Jones fought was wrong..I just wanted to know who of the 2 relied more on physical ability.. who was more orthodox

EDIT:So then it seems that the case for Ali would be his great jab, his better ability to roll with punches

The case for Jones is his body punching, so its kinda even

[JAB5239]

I hope nobody was offended by this question.. i wasn't trying to suggest in any way that they way Ali and Jones fought was wrong..I just wanted to know who of the 2 relied more on physical ability.. who was more orthodox

Don't sweat it bro. It's a good thread that has made for some interesting posts and debate. Keep em coming.