Who had better boxing fundamentals Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones jr

[SCtrojansbaby]

He still had better reflexes than most of the division. The problem was his lack of fundamentals caught up with him and he no longer had the natural ability to avoid taking bombs.

Can we stop with this lack of fundamental crap, Roy used the style that took most advantage of the fact that he is probable the best athlete to ever put on a pair of gloves.

Roy's reflexes were crap post Ruiz, they were not better than any of the guys he was getting KO'd by. If you don't have your reflexes and your punch resistance is gone it doesn't matter how many textbook fundamentals you have you're going to get beatdown by the guys Roy was fighting.

[GoogleMe]

Allround boxing skills, I'd say Ali - way better defense with an ever greater chin. But boxing is about creating you OWN style, and master what suits you the best.

If you're too schooled, you won't much...

[GJC]

Neither of them were great examples to use to teach a kid how to box. When Ali started lot of us old farts thought his unorthodouxness would get found out. Ali aged better due to that fantastic chin and better ring smarts IMO

[RubenSonny]

Neither of them were great examples to use to teach a kid how to box. When Ali started lot of us old farts thought his unorthodouxness would get found out. Ali aged better due to that fantastic chin and better ring smarts IMO

If it works it works, every gym I've been to teaches different things, and I've been taught different ways of doing things by different trainers at the same gym, there's not a right or wrong way to box, effectiveness within the rules (there's some flexibility there) of boxing is all that matters.

[jabsRstiff]

If it works it works, every gym I've been to teaches different things, and I've been taught different ways of doing things by different trainers at the same gym, there's not a right or wrong way to box, effectiveness within the rules (there's some flexibility there) of boxing is all that matters.

I have never seen any trainers training their fighters to fight the way Ali or Jones did. A trainer will always start you out with the basics and let you find out what works for you over time. The first time you drop your hands in front of a guy in sparring or in a fight, your trainer's gonna break your balls. If he sees you have the ability to not only do it and get away with it but make it work...he'll loosen up.

[Kid McCoy]

We are getting off the point Roy after the Ruiz fight had no chin and no reflexes which will make any fighter useless.

Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.

[Sugarj]

Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.

To be honest though, after watching Roy's career he did ship some nasty blows before Tarver 2, to no ill effect.

Whether it was age, weight loss, lack of neck exercises doesn't really matter, but I do think Roy's chin has seriously deteriorated. The shot that knocked him down in Australia by Danny Green looked very ineffectual. Theres not a hope that he wouldn't have been exposed long before Tarver 2, if his chin was always 'that' bad.

Boxers always ship punches, even guys with amazing reflexes. Whether it be in sparring, or in the professional game. Roy was a decorated amateur and a pro for around 15 years before being knocked out by Tarver. We'd have seen some evidence of a weak chin before Tarver if it were the case.

Other boxers chins have deteriorated too with age and jumping down a division after campaigning a division above, Ray Leonard and Ricky Hatton being two that jump to mind.

[Kid McCoy]

To be honest though, after watching Roy's career he did ship some nasty blows before Tarver 2, to no ill effect.

Whether it was age, weight loss, lack of neck exercises doesn't really matter, but I do think Roy's chin has seriously deteriorated. The shot that knocked him down in Australia by Danny Green looked very ineffectual. Theres not a hope that he wouldn't have been exposed long before Tarver 2, if his chin was always 'that' bad.

Boxers always ship punches, even guys with amazing reflexes. Whether it be in sparring, or in the professional game. Roy was a decorated amateur and a pro for around 15 years before being knocked out by Tarver. We'd have seen some evidence of a weak chin before Tarver if it were the case.

Other boxers chins have deteriorated too with age and jumping down a division after campaigning a division above, Ray Leonard and Ricky Hatton being two that jump to mind.

Examples? I never saw Jones previously take a shot comparable to the one Tarver took him out with. I don't doubt that all his punch resistance has gone now, I just have a hard time believing that it suddenly diminished overnight after fighting Ruiz because frankly we don't know how good his chin was before that anyway. In any case, it was more a Hail Mary shot like Nunn-Kalambay or Martinez-Williams, so hardly evidence of a weak chin, just not a great one. Remember Tarver couldn't KO Jones in their other fights.

[JAB5239]

Can we stop with this lack of fundamental crap, Roy used the style that took most advantage of the fact that he is probable the best athlete to ever put on a pair of gloves.

Roy's reflexes were crap post Ruiz, they were not better than any of the guys he was getting KO'd by. If you don't have your reflexes and your punch resistance is gone it doesn't matter how many textbook fundamentals you have you're going to get beatdown by the guys Roy was fighting.

No, they were diminished. As this video will show its his lack of fundamentals, diminished (but still faster than Tarvers) reflexes and willingness to lay on the ropes that cost him the fight. Had he a FUNDAMENTALLY better defense he could have won this fight. Had he a fundamentally better defense he could have beaten Lebedev, who's reflexes his own were better than.

[Sugarj]

Examples? I never saw Jones previously take a shot comparable to the one Tarver took him out with. I don't doubt that all his punch resistance has gone now, I just have a hard time believing that it suddenly diminished overnight after fighting Ruiz because frankly we don't know how good his chin was before that anyway. In any case, it was more a Hail Mary shot like Nunn-Kalambay or Martinez-Williams, so hardly evidence of a weak chin, just not a great one. Remember Tarver couldn't KO Jones in their other fights.

Thats why I focused on the Green fight, where Roy's punch resistance was comparable to dainty porceline, I'm certain that even I have held harder punches than that one without ill effect.

That was clear evidence that his chin had declined further than the Tarver fights. He took what looked like much harder punches from Montel Griffin in their first fight than he did against Green or Lebedev, who have stopped him recently. In Tarver 3 Jones certainly took harder blows than Green or Lebedev hit him with too.

The Tarver punch in fight 2 was good, I don't doubt that it might have knocked out many other light heavyweights too. Likewise, the Glen Johnson punch was pretty nasty.

But I think there is fairly clear evidence that punch resistance can decline in a fighter. You can blame it on a number of things; age, decades of headblows (severe or not), weightmaking......who knows?