RJJ vs Hagler

[Toney616]

LOL yeah and what happened in the Hopkins Mercado rematch? Hopkins gave him a brutal beating Hopkins had an off night .

Doesn't it occur to you that the experience Hopkins gained from facing Mercado the first time helped him tremendously in their rematch?

and would go on to win his next 20 something fights.

After beating Mercado Hopkins wouldn't face an opponent above B level until he faced Keith Holmes. All the guys he faced between Mercado and Holmes were C+ to B level type opponents.

[joseph5620]

Doesn't it occur to you that the experience Hopkins gained from facing Mercado the first time helped him tremendously in their rematch?

After beating Mercado Hopkins wouldn't face an opponent above B level until he faced Keith Holmes. All the guys he faced between Mercado and Holmes were C+ to B level type opponents.

Maybe you can enlighten us about any fighter in history that fought A level opponents each time they fought or defended their belt. And if Hopkins "gained " experience so did Mercado. Who was Hopkins supposed to fight that you're implying he ducked?

[Toney616]

Barnburner mentions Jones's less than stellar punch resistance

Ok and Hagler lost to some guy named Bobby Watts. We are talking about them in their primes

Jones punch resistance going into the Tarver II fight was the same it had always been

Forget Watts, he lost to a guy named Charles who had similar attributes to Jones. You're right about primes though. The drop down from heavyweight took a lot out of him.

The heavyweight excuse is a load of nonsense. He never faced any big punchers, so how can you say for certain that his punch resistance has changed. If he was taking shots from McClellan without flinching then you might have an argument.

Quoting out of context again. I was responding to another posters argument.

His punch resistance going into Tarver II, was the same it had always been

[Vadrigar.]

Barnburner mentions Jones's less than stellar punch resistance

Jones punch resistance going into the Tarver II fight was the same it had always been

The heavyweight excuse is a load of nonsense. He never faced any bug punchers, so how can you say for certain that his punch resistance has changed. If he was taking shots from McClellan without flinching then you might have an argument.

Enlighten me

The match up is prime vs prime and Jones was past prime for both Tarver fights. I just replied by using the Hagler-Leonard fight where Hagler was past his prime but so was leonard.

[Toney616]

The match up is prime vs prime and Joones was past prime for both Tarver fights..

It doesnt matter if he was past prime. He never took a large amount of punishment through out his career so his punch resistance going into the Tarver fights wouldn't of been any different from his prime years.

I just replied by using the Hagler-Leonard fight where Hagler was past his prime but so was leonard.

But how does this help you? Haglers mistake was he started to slow. He wouldn't of done that if he got his rematch.

[Vadrigar.]

It doesnt matter if he was past prime. He never took a large amount of punishment through out his career so his punch resistance going into the Tarver fights wouldn't of been any different from his prime years.

The Hagler-Leonard fight still doesn't help in any context, seeing as how Hagler was not ktfo in two rounds.

You took my post out of context by replying:

The worst form of argument you Jones fans can put forward is using the Hagler from the Leonard fight. Hagler was way over the hill at the stage after having the following tough fights: Roldan, Hearns and Mugabi.

Just as Jones was past prime when he fought Tarver, so was Hagler when he fought Leonard. My original post was not a Jones fan argument.

[joseph5620]

Barnburner mentions Jones's less than stellar punch resistance

Jones punch resistance going into the Tarver II fight was the same it had always been

The heavyweight excuse is a load of nonsense. He never faced any big punchers, so how can you say for certain that his punch resistance has changed. If he was taking shots from McClellan without flinching then you might have an argument.

His punch resistance going into Tarver II, was the same it had always been

Punch resistance is not the same for fighters when they get old. That's just common sense. And I'm not claiming Jones ever had a great chin. But the prime Jones probably would not have been hit by punch.

[Toney616]

You took my post out of context by replying:.

By replying to it I took it out of context?

Just as Jones was past prime when he fought Tarver, so was Hagler when he fought Leonard. My original post was not a Jones fan argument.

The whole sequence of posts started with the point being made about Jones's punch resistance.

Even if a fighter is past prime doesnt mean we cant look at them and draw certain conclusions about thier primes.

Haglers chin and Intangibles were rock solid through out his career, especially past prime, when he really needed to rely on them.

On the flip side Jones's chin was never really tested, so how can anyone say his punch resistance radically dropped post hw?
He has never been in a really tough fight, so how can anyone claim his intangibles were rock solid during his prime years? He basically seemed content to finish against guys like Tarver III, Johnson and Calzaghe.

[Vadrigar.]

By replying to it I took it out of context?

The whole sequence of posts started with the point being made about Jones's punch resistance.

Even if a fighter is past prime doesnt mean we cant look at them and draw certain conclusions about thier primes.

Haglers chin and Intangibles were rock solid through out his career, especially past prime, when he really needed to rely on them.

On the flip side Jones's chin was never really tested, so how can anyone say his punch resistance radically dropped post hw?
He has never been in a really tough fight, so how can anyone claim his intangibles were rock solid during his prime years? He basically seemed content to finish against guys like Tarver III, Johnson and Calzaghe.

In your reply you did not put my post in it's proper context which I explained previously. So my post was taken out of context.

The worst form of argument you Jones fans can put forward is using the Hagler from the Leonard fight. Hagler was way over the hill at the stage after having the following tough fights: Roldan, Hearns and Mugabi.

This was not an argument I was advancing in the match up. I was responding to applying a past prime Jones to this match up by saying Hagler was beaten by a welterweight past his prime.

[Toney616]

My take on this fight

Blueprint fights:
Hagler never faced anyone close to Jones in style, but he did face some really awkward guys like Roldan, Genero and Mugabi and he always found a way to pull of the win.

On the flip side for Jones you could look at the Tarver fights. Tarver was a tall rangy southpaw with an awkward style, Hagler was only around 5'8 but he did have the range. Most of Jones offense comes from his left arm: Triple left hooks, leaping left hooks, leaping left uppercuts. The problem for Jones is that all of these punches are hard to land against a defensive minded Southpaw which is the reason Jones struggled with Tarver*3 and Harding. He wouldnt even really be able to use his counter left over a lazy Hagler right jab, because of Haglers reach advantage. The only punch Hagler would have to look out for is Jones right hand lead.

The McCallum fight is also interesting because McCallums reflexes and defensive skills were good enough even at that stage of his career to cope with Jones' offense. If McCallum could hold his own against Jones at that stage of his career then Haglers defense will also hold up against Jones offense.

Another fight you can look at is the Glen Johnson fight where Johnson fought a very tough agressive fight the same kind of fight Hagler has fought, and got Jones out of there.

At mw Jones was at best a green contender, who had his hands full with green Hopkins, I can't see how he is going to beat a prime atg in the atg's prime weight class.

Hagler ud win imo