RJJ vs Hagler

[gatorDelux]

another point....

when rjj fought bhop bhop was completly green....

hopmdidnt peek untill his mid late thirtys...

and toney stylisticly was made for rjj no matter how skilled he was a fighter that jabs and usses plenty of footwork wont walk into counters and they will make him look flat footed cause jt never really swarmed when he needed to....

ie. the first macullum fight

[SCtrojansbaby]

another point....

when rjj fought bhop bhop was completly green....

Here we go again.

[StarshipTrooper]

Here we go again.

:jerk0ff9: :jerk0ff9: :jerk0ff9: :jerk0ff9:

[joseph5620]

another point....

when rjj fought bhop bhop was completly green....

hopmdidnt peek untill his mid late thirtys...

and toney stylisticly was made for rjj no matter how skilled he was a fighter that jabs and usses plenty of footwork wont walk into counters and they will make him look flat footed cause jt never really swarmed when he needed to....

ie. the first macullum fight

Both fighters lacked big fight experience which balanced it as far as I'm concerned. And Hopkins was still the best middleweight Jones could have faced. His record after that fight speaks for itself. That win for Jones can't be taken away or discredited. And Toney's style is not "made" for anybody. Toney was a difficult match up for any fighter.

[Toney616]

For Jabstiff

Mugabi had been a terrific light-middleweight, a world champion. Even when he moved up to middleweight, he gave Marvin Hagler a tough time - but he came into this fight all torn up, upstairs and down. He had been in a real bad car accident not long before and the rising Terry Norris had knocked him out in the first round of his prvious fight at light-middleweight. Mugabi would end up fighting in Australia years later for derisory sums

War, baby: The glamour of violence p41

[Toney616]

LOL i don't even know if I can respond to this nonsense. Leonard coming off retirement in his first fight a middleweight more durable than Roy a very big middleweight. lol it just looks ****** typing it.

Forget Watts, he lost to a guy named Charles who had similar attributes to Jones. You're right about primes though. The drop down from heavyweight took a lot out of him.

The worst form of argument you Jones fans can put forward is using the Hagler from the Leonard fight. Hagler was way over the hill at the stage after having the following tough fights: Roldan, Hearns and Mugabi.

He made a bad tactical mistake which cost him at least 3 of the first four rounds, but he started applying the pressure post round 4 and ended up losing a competitive fight. It was Haglers error during the first part of that fight, which cost him the fight not just Leonard tactics alone.

Hagler chose to try outbox leonard due to all of the critics from the press and Leonards head games - this would be a moot point going into a Jones fight, so I cannot see how you Jones fans can bring it up

On the flip side, Jones at a similar point in his career was getting ktfo by Tarver and Journeyman Johnson

[Toney616]

Here we go again.

After losing his first pro fight at cw, Hopkins would move down to mw and beat around 26 C+ level fighters. He knew he was going up in class against Baptist, which is why he cheated going into the fight. He had the waist band on his shorts enlarged which meant that Baptist couldn't go to the body. Everytime he tried he got a warning from Smodger about hitting low. Hopkins was stunned at least twice in the fight, and he was forced to pretend to have been hit low so he could buy himself recovery time.

Gilbert Baptist
Day job: probation officer
coming off a loss before he fought Hopkins
Record going into Hopkins fight: 20-14
conclusion: B- level fighter (journeyman)

After lsoing to Jones he would beat a string of C+ level fighters before stepping into the ring with Segundo Mercado. Hopkins went life and death with Mercado, getting dropped twice during the fight. By around round 9, dude started headbutting to try and get an advantage in the fight

Segundo Mercado
final pro record:
won 19 (KO 11) + lost 10 (KO 9) + drawn 2
noticable losses: Lucas, Sosa, Hopkins
conclusion: B- level fighter (journeyman)

If you are going life and death with journeyman then you are at best a b level fighter. Hopkins wouldn't prove he was way above b level until he fought a green contender called Glen Johnson

conclusion:
Hopkins was a green contender when he lost to Jones

[Toney616]

LOL at Bernard Hopkins and James Toney not being as well rounded as Marvin Hagler

Marvin Hagler styles:
1: Boxer with good lateral movwement (Briscoe fight)
2: Brawler (Hearns)
3: Really agressive, ofensive fighter (Minter, Mugabi)

stance: Could fight orthodox and southpaw

Toney style
1: Defensive minded counterpuncher
stance: orthodox

They are not even close. No version of Hagler loses every single round to Jones, like Toney did. The problem with Toney was he only had one style, which is easier to prepare for than a guy with at least three styles.

Conclusion:
Hagler is more well rounded


Hopkins Style:
1: Defensive minded counter puncher and dirty inside fighter
stance: orthodox

Hopkins is at best a poor mans Hagler. No version of hagler has to turn fights into foul filled mauling sessions, like Hopkins needed to do, to beat Holmes and Allen*2

Conclusion:
Hagler is more well rounded

[SCtrojansbaby]

After losing his first pro fight at cw, Hopkins would move down to mw and beat around 26 C+ level fighters. He knew he was going up in class against Baptist, which is why he cheated going into the fight. He had the waist band on his shorts enlarged which meant that Baptist couldn't go to the body. Everytime he tried he got a warning from Smodger about hitting low. Hopkins was stunned at least twice in the fight, and he was forced to pretend to have been hit low so he could buy himself recovery time.

Gilbert Baptist
Day job: probation officer
coming off a loss before he fought Hopkins
Record going into Hopkins fight: 20-14
conclusion: B- level fighter (journeyman)

After lsoing to Jones he would beat a string of C+ level fighters before stepping into the ring with Segundo Mercado. Hopkins went life and death with Mercado, getting dropped twice during the fight. By around round 9, dude started headbutting to try and get an advantage in the fight

Segundo Mercado
final pro record:
won 19 (KO 11) + lost 10 (KO 9) + drawn 2
noticable losses: Lucas, Sosa, Hopkins
conclusion: B- level fighter (journeyman)

If you are going life and death with journeyman then you are at best a b level fighter. Hopkins wouldn't prove he was way above b level until he fought a green contender called Glen Johnson

conclusion:
Hopkins was a green contender when he lost to Jones

LOL yeah and what happened in the Hopkins Mercado rematch? Hopkins gave him a brutal beating Hopkins had an off night and would go on to win his next 20 something fights.

[Vadrigar.]

The worst form of argument you Jones fans can put forward is using the Hagler from the Leonard fight. Hagler was way over the hill at the stage after having the following tough fights: Roldan, Hearns and Mugabi.

Quoting out of context again. I was responding to another posters argument.