Joe Frazier beats both Klitschkos

[QueensburyRules]

This one won't work, Mathis is more skillful than both Klitschkos, what he doesn't have is work ethic and they do. Mathis never got anywhere because of this. So him hanging in until the 11th with Joe, especially having fought and sparred together before makes a lot of sense. In fact Mathis going the distance would have made a lot of sense as well, as the story goes he gave up his gold medal because he didn't care, and Joe moved in as the second best. Mathis idea was that he was the more talented fighter he just didn't care enough.

Wladmir is very textbook, Vitali is naturally stronger and tougher chinned and also slightly more skillful. I don't know what the debate is between the 2, because Vitali is leagues better than Wlad.

- - Buster had an injury, probably broken hand and therefore Joe took his place in the Olympics.

Buster like the other Buster Douglas couldn't have a long career because they was born prediabetic, hence massive weight gains, heath woes, and short life span for Mathis in those early diabetic treatment years. In short, U projecting what U don't know on poor Buster who had plenty of more pressing problems in his day ain't a good look for U.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE]

This one won't work, Mathis is more skillful than both Klitschkos, what he doesn't have is work ethic and they do. /QUOTE]

Mathis is more skilled? Frazier was down on points an had to rally vs Mathis. He wasn't a puncher is Klitschko's class to keep him off, nor did he have the footwork and mobility of either of them! He didn't have the skills either. Yet he had enough to hang vs a prime Joe Frazier. Watch the fight. Your excuses don't hold water. Why? Maybe you would have a point if you said Mathis' man boobs distracted Frazier which is why he was down on points and had to wait for him to gas to win in the 11th round. As you said he wasn't in shape and had early health issues, which is unfortunate for him.

[them_apples]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n31638069]

Mathis is more skilled? Frazier was down on points an had to rally vs Mathis. He wasn't a puncher is Klitschko's class to keep him off, nor did he have the footwork and mobility of either of them! He didn't have the skills either. Yet he had enough to hang vs a prime Joe Frazier. Watch the fight. Your excuses don't hold water. Why? Maybe you would have a point if you said Mathis' man boobs distracted Frazier which is why he was down on points and had to wait for him to gas to win in the 11th round. As you said he wasn't in shape and had early health issues, which is unfortunate for him.

in Joe Fraziers book, this was his description of their friendship. Mathis was talented and didn't care enough, wanted to just go out and party, have fun. Wladmir has struggled or lost against much lesser fighters, not sure where you are getting the impression that Wlad is so skillful and dangerous, absolutely nothing on his resume would state this. I'd be much more inclined to pick Vitali over Mathis, which I think he would win - I see Mathis as a better fighter than Wlad but with a poor work ethic. We have seen Wlad get slept and struggle hard against very basic competition, I don't even see that intangible that when the going get's tough Wlad turns it up. HE DOESN'T. he just plays within the zone of competition he can beat and loses whenever the kitchen heats up a bit too much.

If you are comparing physiques, then yes Wlad wins of course. That seems to be what most people do in fantasy fights though, and when a contemporary obese fighter like Andy Ruiz shows up and sleeps the worlds champ - he falls into the category of an anomaly. Then when Tyson Fury, a man with a dad bod and low muscle mass proportionately starts embarassing similar competition that Wlad would have fought he's "special".

Mathis is 6 ft 4 and fat. he's the perfect build for someone campaigning today

[them_apples]

- - Buster had an injury, probably broken hand and therefore Joe took his place in the Olympics.

Buster like the other Buster Douglas couldn't have a long career because they was born prediabetic, hence massive weight gains, heath woes, and short life span for Mathis in those early diabetic treatment years. In short, U projecting what U don't know on poor Buster who had plenty of more pressing problems in his day ain't a good look for U.

he did have an injury, but also a track record of not showing up to bouts and not training.

[them_apples]

Mathis had fast hands, rather like Tony Tubbs,I don't think he had more skills than Wlad who I think was the better boxer of the two brothers ,just my opinion.
Vitali was certainly the more natural fighter and by far the more durable . Both would have beaten Mathis. without much trouble.

Frazier was a grinder he rarely took out anyone of any class with one shot.

Who was the best man he actually ko'd for the count?
Ex Lhvy Doug Jones.
I don't like his chances with either of the Klits,but he is certainly much more eye friendly to watch!

What is so skillful about wlad? he faces a shorter opponent with no head movement and the stick works all night. Come to the fight with a few more tricks and Wlads sleeping or running trying to make it out alive.

As for one punch KO power with Joe? he certainly did. It just depends on who he's up against, like anyone. Wilder has 90%+ Koes' but 99.9 percent were tomato cans (actually). Unranked club fighters in the heavyweight division in 2020, which means a lot of fat guys, even fat light heavies and middleweights (which could easily come in at 250+ look at toney).

Joe had plenty of Koes, any fight that ends under 5 rounds was not a "grind". I think joe, if you stood in front of him could dish out damage like nobody else. if we take into account stoppages, many fighters have a small number of actual knockouts. Joe Louis seems to have a lot, (where his oponent couldn't stand up from a 10 count) but this was in a time where a shaky legged individual was a allowed to get to their feet and fight back.

As to why I pick Frazier over the klits? Because the fight wouldn't be on the outside, it would be inside. Wlad doesn't know how to keep a style like joes off, nobody fought like him in Wlads time. wlad is gonna hold or run and not know what to do when Joe baits him into missing and starts dealing damage to his body and jaw. chisora is not even 50% of what joe Frazier is, mentally or physically. Chisora throws wide looping arm punches and is carrying about 60+ lbs of useless dead weight that fatigues him in a few rounds.

Let me ask you something, when is the last time we saw a pressure fighter actually do it right in boxing today? A fighters that has one goal and thats to get low and get inside, every second of every round. No boxing on the outside, just inside or nothing. nobody applies that style with conviction.

[QueensburyRules]

What is so skillful about wlad? he faces a shorter opponent with no head movement and the stick works all night. Come to the fight with a few more tricks and Wlads sleeping or running trying to make it out alive.

As for one punch KO power with Joe? he certainly did. It just depends on who he's up against, like anyone. Wilder has 90%+ Koes' but 99.9 percent were tomato cans (actually). Unranked club fighters in the heavyweight division in 2020, which means a lot of fat guys, even fat light heavies and middleweights (which could easily come in at 250+ look at toney).

Joe had plenty of Koes, any fight that ends under 5 rounds was not a "grind". I think joe, if you stood in front of him could dish out damage like nobody else. if we take into account stoppages, many fighters have a small number of actual knockouts. Joe Louis seems to have a lot, (where his oponent couldn't stand up from a 10 count) but this was in a time where a shaky legged individual was a allowed to get to their feet and fight back.

As to why I pick Frazier over the klits? Because the fight wouldn't be on the outside, it would be inside. Wlad doesn't know how to keep a style like joes off, nobody fought like him in Wlads time. wlad is gonna hold or run and not know what to do when Joe baits him into missing and starts dealing damage to his body and jaw. chisora is not even 50% of what joe Frazier is, mentally or physically. Chisora throws wide looping arm punches and is carrying about 60+ lbs of useless dead weight that fatigues him in a few rounds.

Let me ask you something, when is the last time we saw a pressure fighter actually do it right in boxing today? A fighters that has one goal and thats to get low and get inside, every second of every round. No boxing on the outside, just inside or nothing. nobody applies that style with conviction.

- - No shortage of short, 200lb fighters since Joe, and none of them winning titles.

Modern boxing has passed you by, but you in the slow lan

[Willow The Wisp]

Mathis would NOT have beaten Frazier, Wladimir or Vitali at the four fighter's respective best. That we can
ALL get with.
But calling the guy fat doesn't speak to his capabilities. Know much about him?
I'm guessing not much. He was the representative for the USA at the 64' Olympics. An injury suffered in a 2nd consecutive win over Frazier prevented him from performing, and Frazier was called up to sustitute. Aside from Ali he may have been the fastest guy of his era, and very light on his feet. Great all around athlete, playing pro football in the CFL.

Some poster makes a big deal out of Mathis being ahead on points against Frazier and used that as 'evidence' against Joe's ability. What makes him think that Mathis wouldn't pull the same trick against the skilled but slower Klitschko Brothers for a few rounds?
These debates are mostly silly wordsmithing fed by opinions. One of Mine, is that Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs are the only six guys who Vitali ever fought who I'd mention in the same breath with Mathis; and he only had it in him to beat just four of them. Wlad does a bit better.
Frazier? The only time he met Ali in their 20s Ali was undefeated and coming off stoppages over two of the best guys that he ever fought, in the best heavyweight landscape in history; and Frazier whipped his ass. Everything Wladimir and Vitali ever did all balled up is just wet sawdust compared to that.

[Ivich]

Mathis would NOT have beaten Frazier, Wladimir or Vitali at the four fighter's respective best. That we can
ALL get with.
But calling the guy fat doesn't speak to his capabilities. Know much about him?
I'm guessing not much. He was the representative for the USA at the 64' Olympics. An injury suffered in a 2nd consecutive win over Frazier prevented him from performing, and Frazier was called up to sustitute. Aside from Ali he may have been the fastest guy of his era, and very light on his feet. Great all around athlete, playing pro football in the CFL.

Some poster makes a big deal out of Mathis being ahead on points against Frazier and used that as 'evidence' against Joe's ability. What makes him think that Mathis wouldn't pull the same trick against the skilled but slower Klitschko Brothers for a few rounds?
These debates are mostly silly wordsmithing fed by opinions. One of Mine, is that Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs are the only six guys who Vitali ever fought who I'd mention in the same breath with Mathis; and he only had it in him to beat just four of them. Wlad does a bit better.
Frazier? The only time he met Ali in their 20s Ali was undefeated and coming off stoppages over two of the best guys that he ever fought, in the best heavyweight landscape in history; and Frazier whipped his ass. Everything Wladimir and Vitali ever did all balled up is just wet sawdust compared to that.

Mathis was not up on the scorecards against Frazier, let's squash that silly lie.
From Frazier's record on Box rec.

	Madison Square Garden, New York	W-TKO	11/15		event bout score wiki
2:33 ref: Arthur Mercante 5-5 Tony Castellano 7-2 Jack Gordon 6-4

Frazier and Mathis fought on the double header of the New Garden with Griffith and Benvenuti.Mathis was unranked by the Ring and a only cursory look at his record indicates he had no business fighting for a title.
His resume was padded with the usual suspects,ham and eggers, and no hopers
Both Frazier and Ali were in their 20's for FOTC Ali was 29 and had 18 rds of action in the previous 4 years.Ali without that enforced hiatus beats Frazier,imo as he did in their subsequent 2 fights.
Frazier was also 29 when Foreman turned him into a yo, yo.
Frazier won FOTC no argument about that,-------but
Frazier spent nearly a month is the hospital after that fight, Ali an hour for a XRay so who whipped whose ass?

Frazier has one of the best wins ever on his resume ,and some solid victories over contenders like Quarry,Ellis,and Bonavena.
He also held the title hostage for 2 years,defending against 2 unranked journeymen,that adversely affected his legacy ,imo

Smokin Joe was a great fighter and a fine man, but he never faced class modern sized men that could both box and hit like the Klits.

Is he greater than the Bros?IMO Yes
Does he beat them ?IMO No

[Ivich]

What is so skillful about wlad? he faces a shorter opponent with no head movement and the stick works all night. Come to the fight with a few more tricks and Wlads sleeping or running trying to make it out alive.

As for one punch KO power with Joe? he certainly did. It just depends on who he's up against, like anyone. Wilder has 90%+ Koes' but 99.9 percent were tomato cans (actually). Unranked club fighters in the heavyweight division in 2020, which means a lot of fat guys, even fat light heavies and middleweights (which could easily come in at 250+ look at toney).

Joe had plenty of Koes, any fight that ends under 5 rounds was not a "grind". I think joe, if you stood in front of him could dish out damage like nobody else. if we take into account stoppages, many fighters have a small number of actual knockouts. Joe Louis seems to have a lot, (where his oponent couldn't stand up from a 10 count) but this was in a time where a shaky legged individual was a allowed to get to their feet and fight back.

As to why I pick Frazier over the klits? Because the fight wouldn't be on the outside, it would be inside. Wlad doesn't know how to keep a style like joes off, nobody fought like him in Wlads time. wlad is gonna hold or run and not know what to do when Joe baits him into missing and starts dealing damage to his body and jaw. chisora is not even 50% of what joe Frazier is, mentally or physically. Chisora throws wide looping arm punches and is carrying about 60+ lbs of useless dead weight that fatigues him in a few rounds.

Let me ask you something, when is the last time we saw a pressure fighter actually do it right in boxing today? A fighters that has one goal and thats to get low and get inside, every second of every round. No boxing on the outside, just inside or nothing. nobody applies that style with conviction.

These are Frazier's kos

Don Smith 13-5-1 4 of his career 8 losses are by stoppage

Mel Turnbow 6-3-0 Was stopped 10 times in his career

Abe Davis 5-22-1 Was stopped13 times in his career

Doug Jones 29- 8-1 188lbs

Al Jones 3-5-2. Had been stopped in 4 of his 5 defeats,would be stopped 25 times in his career

Chuck Leslie13-9-2

Ziggy 29-1-0

Bob Foster 41-4-0

Foster,Leslie were lhvys.

Frazier gets close to Wlad ,the Ukranian lays all over him as he did the much bigger than Frazier, Povetkin.

Vitali knew how to judge distance ,he would pick Frazier off at range. Foreman beat Frazier by simply shoving him back out to his optimum range why would they not be able to do that?

Frazier was a one trick pony, come forward and pressure, his stature demanded he do so,and he was very, very good at it but he never successfully faced anyone who could hit that hard and was that big.
It's simple physics to me.

[Dr. Z]

Mathis was not up on the scorecards against Frazier, let's squash that silly lie.
From Frazier's record on Box rec.

	Madison Square Garden, New York	W-TKO	11/15		event bout score wiki
2:33 ref: Arthur Mercante 5-5 Tony Castellano 7-2 Jack Gordon 6-4

Frazier and Mathis fought on the double header of the New Garden with Griffith and Benvenuti.Mathis was unranked by the Ring and a only cursory look at his record indicates he had no business fighting for a title.
His resume was padded with the usual suspects,ham and eggers, and no hopers
Both Frazier and Ali were in their 20's for FOTC Ali was 29 and had 18 rds of action in the previous 4 years.Ali without that enforced hiatus beats Frazier,imo as he did in their subsequent 2 fights.
Frazier was also 29 when Foreman turned him into a yo, yo.
Frazier won FOTC no argument about that,-------but
Frazier spent nearly a month is the hospital after that fight, Ali an hour for a XRay so who whipped whose ass?

Frazier has one of the best wins ever on his resume ,and some solid victories over contenders like Quarry,Ellis,and Bonavena.
He also held the title hostage for 2 years,defending against 2 unranked journeymen,that adversely affected his legacy ,imo

Smokin Joe was a great fighter and a fine man, but he never faced class modern sized men that could both box and hit like the Klits.

Is he greater than the Bros?IMO Yes
Does he beat them ?IMO No

Yes Mathis was ahead of Frazier at one point look up the score cards say round eight! Mathis was in the lead. Frazier came on late in round 9, and 10 when the out of shape Mathis tired. That is the truth.


Why is this important? Mathis was a big man, not nearly as well conditioned as Klitschko nor did he hit as hard as Klitschko, not did he move around like Klitschko, nor did he have their jab.

If your score the 1st Bonavena fight on the ten point must system Bonavena is the clear winner.

It was close enough to go either way with referee Mark Conn giving it to Frazier 6-4 in rounds, while judge Joe Eppy had Frazier 5-4-1. But judge Nick Gamboli had it 5-5 in rounds and Bonavena 7-5 on points.

But they did not use the ten points must scoring system! If they did Bonavena gets 10-7 round and clearly wins the fight. But they only gave a point to the winner in each round. Frazier admits he was very close to a stoppage loss. That's it, the best puncher Frazier beat.

Having said that, I agree with you and a little bit better now with the warning.