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How does Joe Louis do against these fighters?

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  • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
    Are you serious about those names? Hardly any of them were ranked even in the top 10. Louis won convincingly against a lot of fighters too who were better than this lot.

    Yes and Ruiz has been the type that gets better as he gets older while Tua got worse and worse since the Ruiz win.

    A comeback KO of a cruiserweight after losing just about every round on the scorecards. Much like most of Tua's wins. A prime Moorer wouldn't have needed a comeback KO to beat Jirov at heavyweight.

    And why exactly do Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Oliver McCall have more power than anyone Louis ever faced? Tua is the only notable puncher in the list. The rest were big but size doesn't mean you can punch. Otherwise 6'4, 240 lb Zuri Lawrence wouldn't have 0 knockouts in 50 fights.

    "Cruiserweight" Max Baer who was in shape at 210 lbs while the likes of Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker were just fat and out of shape most of the time punched a lot harder than any of them. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were also very big and Louis slaughtered them.

    How many men had ever stopped Baer at the time Louis KO'd him? No one. Whose punching power had taken him to a world heavyweight title and whose did not?

    Agreed about the heart. Baer never gave up after getting hit by a couple of right hands in the first round like Tua did against Lewis.

    He had more muscles but do muscles win fights? If they did, this man would have surely won over Louis:

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    If he wasn't brilliant then why do you rank him among your top 10 greatest heavyweights? McCall hardly used his reach, he just plodded forward and exploded with his counter right hand every once in a while.

    Tyson had other claims to fame than having a fight against Douglas. For example making McCall quit in a sparring session.

    I didn't know that lasting the distance against Buster Douglas makes you great.

    Derrick Jefferson is equal to Wilson, Nicolson, Sullivan, Bell. Tony Thompson & Jameel McCline are better and were ranked in the top 10. Those fighters you listed weren't any good at all.

    Chambers vs Dimitrenko should have been a draw? It was a near shut-out and a beatdown of Dimitrenko that some blind judge scored a draw.

    The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.

    You can't just say that Tua would've destroyed everyone if he were taller. First of all the reason he has such explosive power is because he's very compact, stocky and has strong legs. His bobbing & weaving makes fighters miss due to his short height and his left hook comes from the opponent's blind side. The reason he hasn't beaten every fighter he has fought is because he lacks consistent work ethic and because he is simply not as good a boxer as the likes of Byrd.

    A focused Baer would go through today's top 10 like butter outside of the Klitschko brothers. Schmeling was better than the likes of Chagaev and Povetkin. More skilled, smarter and with a harder punch.

    You don't need a Tua punch or a McCall chin to beat them, that has been proven over and over. And Baer had a hell of a chin and easily a bigger punch than McCall whose power comes mostly from his ability to catch people with punches they don't see coming. Baer had raw power and could club opponents down.

    Haye has a chin made of glass.

    Something happened even when Byrd caught Tua, not to mention Lewis. He got discouraged. Tua is not some kind of a "terminator" even if his nickname is such, if he gets hit it'll make him think about his next move or if he makes another move at all. No one wants to take unnecessary punishment. In fact neither McCall or Tua are like Baer who was willing to walk through punishment to land his own. They're much more defensive fighters.

    Are you kidding me? Louis would destroy Haye worse than Carl Thompson ever could.

    Tua is very comparable to Louis's opposition. He was just a contender who never won a title.

    He didn't try very aggressively at all. The reason he only reached is because he didn't try to force Lewis to fight in close unlike Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano. He was content on staying at Lewis's range and being picked apart but not knocked out.

    Byrd was also able to trade punches and hurt Tua to the body. Holyfield did beat Bowe the one time he actually used his boxing and didn't brawl with Bowe. I've seen power punchers KO Wladimir far more often than I've seen tall jabbers beat Louis.
    Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
    You're now admitting that light heavyweights and cruiserweights have been able to compete today when a moment earlier you said that they couldn't. None of the fighters you listed were as great as the men I'm talking about. If light heavyweights and cruiserweights could beat McCall and Tua then so could Louis.

    Savon was adept at fighting teenagers in 4 rounders but Schmeling was an actual pro who had fought 15 round fights and had held the heavyweight championship of the world. A young Louis lost to him and avenged the loss in devastating fashion. It's far more excusable than the many losses on McCall's record.
    Game, set, and match!

    Poet

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    • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
      You're now admitting that light heavyweights and cruiserweights have been able to compete today when a moment earlier you said that they couldn't. None of the fighters you listed were as great as the men I'm talking about. If light heavyweights and cruiserweights could beat McCall and Tua then so could Louis.
      of course they can compete today , against the likes of themselves.
      but whenever they step in the ring against a technically almost decent superheavy in a fine condition they lose.
      adamek can compete against chambers , haye can compete against ruiz , moorer could compete against jirov , but no one can compete against the klitschkos. sanders , puritty were almost natural heavys and brewster was quite of a fluke , and a roided one at that , and fighting a chinny wlad also helped.
      louis could outpoint mccall on some occasions , i suppose (not certain) , but mccall stopping louis is about as reasonable scenario.


      Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
      Savon was adept at fighting teenagers in 4 rounders but Schmeling was an actual pro who had fought 15 round fights and had held the heavyweight championship of the world. A young Louis lost to him and avenged the loss in devastating fashion. It's far more excusable than the many losses on McCall's record.
      no. a stoppage loss to a smaller fighter is by far worse than a decision loss to a bigger fighter like mccall's losses to bruno , tucker and douglas.
      some of mccall's losses were also too close to be considered as serious losses.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Are you serious about those names? Hardly any of them were ranked even in the top 10. Louis won convincingly against a lot of fighters too who were better than this lot.
        not many of louis' wins were better than the list i gave.
        schmelling and walcott were , but they were not more dangerous as they were smaller.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Yes and Ruiz has been the type that gets better as he gets older while Tua got worse and worse since the Ruiz win.
        in a rematch expect tua to beat ruiz again , maybe slower but still.


        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        A comeback KO of a cruiserweight after losing just about every round on the scorecards. Much like most of Tua's wins. A prime Moorer wouldn't have needed a comeback KO to beat Jirov at heavyweight.
        but it still shows he was not that much shot at the time he fought tua , which was yet 2 years earlier.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        And why exactly do Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Oliver McCall have more power than anyone Louis ever faced? Tua is the only notable puncher in the list. The rest were big but size doesn't mean you can punch. Otherwise 6'4, 240 lb Zuri Lawrence wouldn't have 0 knockouts in 50 fights.
        b/c they are bigger , roider and GH'der.
        in average bigger size is a bigger punch and a better chin. fact. otherwise there would not have been so many weight classes , which are almost all very much needed. and some are still missing. like the superheavyweight division for example.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        "Cruiserweight" Max Baer who was in shape at 210 lbs while the likes of Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker were just fat and out of shape most of the time punched a lot harder than any of them. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were also very big and Louis slaughtered them.
        he was 203 against schmelling , and i think he was in shape that time.
        whatever video/footage of him hitting a lightheavyweight / middleweight you may have , he still punches weaker than them.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        How many men had ever stopped Baer at the time Louis KO'd him? No one. Whose punching power had taken him to a world heavyweight title and whose did not?
        who held the titles at the respective times ?

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Agreed about the heart. Baer never gave up after getting hit by a couple of right hands in the first round like Tua did against Lewis.
        tua did not give up , i saw the fight , repeating a lie will not make it a truth.
        it is still better than saying byrd hurt tua as seriously you claim.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        He had more muscles but do muscles win fights? If they did, this man would have surely won over Louis:

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        carnera was not as technically good as you try to make of him.
        canera was no klitschko , not even a wlad .

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        If he wasn't brilliant then why do you rank him among your top 10 greatest heavyweights? McCall hardly used his reach, he just plodded forward and exploded with his counter right hand every once in a while.
        b/c without being brilliant he would still beat most of the fighters in your list that are not in my list.


        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Tyson had other claims to fame than having a fight against Douglas. For example making McCall quit in a sparring session.
        so this is another reason why tyson should be higher than mccall in my list. good to know.
        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        I didn't know that lasting the distance against Buster Douglas makes you great.
        in itself it doesn't. but i alreadt mentioned mccall's other claims to greatness.
        douglas was a big dangerous heavy , ask tyson of what he can do.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Derrick Jefferson is equal to Wilson, Nicolson, Sullivan, Bell. Tony Thompson & Jameel McCline are better and were ranked in the top 10. Those fighters you listed weren't any good at all.
        they were proven dangerous and tua beat them much more convincingly and quicker than anyone else did.

        Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.
        had they been the same size it would have been either a draw , or close to it.

        i need to go now.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post

          The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.
          (also) wlad did struggle against thompson.

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          You can't just say that Tua would've destroyed everyone if he were taller. First of all the reason he has such explosive power is because he's very compact, stocky and has strong legs. His bobbing & weaving makes fighters miss due to his short height and his left hook comes from the opponent's blind side. The reason he hasn't beaten every fighter he has fought is because he lacks consistent work ethic and because he is simply not as good a boxer as the likes of Byrd.
          had he been taller with the same proportions he has , he would have been even stronger. but it it not the lack of power that bothered his achievements to this point , it was his lack of reach.
          even the accessibility of his chin would have been tougher for ibeabuchi , lewis and byrd had he been taller.
          he is not as good as boxer as byrd because if he had the same technique as byrd he just would have been a bigger version of montell griffin.
          it is impossible for such a short fighter to be considered a great "boxer" , so he never tried to be.
          you can't expect him to fight like lennox lewis b/c his physique is the opposite.
          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          A focused Baer would go through today's top 10 like butter outside of the Klitschko brothers. Schmeling was better than the likes of Chagaev and Povetkin. More skilled, smarter and with a harder punch.
          and outside of ruiz , haye , chambers , adamek (maybe baer could beat them , but they could beat him too , so no "like butter") , tua , mccall so i guess
          he too would not have held a belt today.

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          You don't need a Tua punch or a McCall chin to beat them, that has been proven over and over. And Baer had a very solid chin and easily a bigger punch than McCall whose power comes mostly from his ability to catch people with punches they don't see coming. Baer had raw power and could club opponents down.
          so you made a joe louis out of mccall ?

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Haye has a chin made of glass.
          then so had louis , schmelling , patterson , ingemar johnson and archie moore.

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Something happened even when Byrd caught Tua, not to mention Lewis. He got discouraged. Tua is not some kind of a "terminator" even if his nickname is such, if he gets hit it'll make him think about his next move or whether he makes another move at all. No one wants to take unnecessary punishment. In fact neither McCall or Tua are like Baer who was willing to walk through punishment to land his own. They're much more defensive fighters.
          tua did not get discouraged against byrd whatsoever , and against lewis he just could not reach enough.
          this is why they are better , at least tua .
          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Are you kidding me? Louis would destroy Haye worse than Carl Thompson ever could.
          a realistic possibility indeed but so is the possibility of haye destroying louis worse than marciano or schmelling did.
          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Tua is very comparable to Louis's opposition. He was just a contender who never won a title.
          not at all. he is a champion beater.
          could have easily been the champion had he fought ruiz / moorer / maskaev / haye / patterson / johnson / louis / or any pre 60's champion except , maybe , the behemoth sized ones at the time each one of them held the title.

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          He didn't try very aggressively at all. The reason he only reached is because he didn't try to force Lewis to fight in close unlike Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano. He was content on staying at Lewis's range and being picked apart but not knocked out.
          he did not find enough opportunities to land or even score because of lewis' huge range advantage. so being patient became a flaw ?

          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Byrd was also able to trade punches and hurt Tua to the body.
          said you.
          Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
          Holyfield did beat Bowe the one time he actually used his boxing and didn't brawl with Bowe. I've seen power punchers KO Wladimir far more often than I've seen tall jabbers beat Louis.
          holyfield did not beat bowe , he just was able to fair reasonably well against him in one of their 3 encounters.
          there were not many quality tall jabbers above lewis' height , maybe it is because there were not too many fighters above lewis' height.

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          • Originally posted by frankenfrank View Post
            (also) wlad did struggle against thompson.


            had he been taller with the same proportions he has , he would have been even stronger. but it it not the lack of power that bothered his achievements to this point , it was his lack of reach.
            even the accessibility of his chin would have been tougher for ibeabuchi , lewis and byrd had he been taller.
            he is not as good as boxer as byrd because if he had the same technique as byrd he just would have been a bigger version of montell griffin.
            it is impossible for such a short fighter to be considered a great "boxer" , so he never tried to be.
            you can't expect him to fight like lennox lewis b/c his physique is the opposite.

            and outside of ruiz , haye , chambers , adamek (maybe baer could beat them , but they could beat him too , so no "like butter") , tua , mccall so i guess
            he too would not have held a belt today.


            so you made a joe louis out of mccall ?


            then so had louis , schmelling , patterson , ingemar johnson and archie moore.


            tua did not get discouraged against byrd whatsoever , and against lewis he just could not reach enough.
            this is why they are better , at least tua .

            a realistic possibility indeed but so is the possibility of haye destroying louis worse than marciano or schmelling did.

            not at all. he is a champion beater.
            could have easily been the champion had he fought ruiz / moorer / maskaev / haye / patterson / johnson / louis / or any pre 60's champion except , maybe , the behemoth sized ones at the time each one of them held the title.


            he did not find enough opportunities to land or even score because of lewis' huge range advantage. so being patient became a flaw ?


            said you.

            holyfield did not beat bowe , he just was able to fair reasonably well against him in one of their 3 encounters.
            there were not many quality tall jabbers above lewis' height , maybe it is because there were not too many fighters above lewis' height.

            I'm gonna let TheGreatA finish this, but you have proven yourself a much worse poster than some of the miscreants who try to spew their BS.

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            • liston > tua
              ali > tua
              louis > tua
              foreman > tua

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              • liston

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                • Originally posted by frankenfrank View Post
                  liston
                  Last edited by Schmerzen; 02-24-2010, 06:29 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by frankenfrank View Post
                    b/c they are bigger , roider and GH'der.
                    in average bigger size is a bigger punch and a better chin. fact. otherwise there would not have been so many weight classes , which are almost all very much needed. and some are still missing. like the superheavyweight division for example.
                    Skill and speed are much more important to the power of a punch then a persons size.

                    which of these guys do you think got ko'd in 3 rounds when they fought?

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                    Last edited by Spartacus Sully; 02-24-2010, 06:37 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by Mr. Shen View Post
                      Skill and speed are much more important to the power of a punch then a persons size.

                      which of these guys do you think got ko'd in 3 rounds when they fought?

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                      i said : in average.

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