Where Does Golovkin Rank Among The All Time Middles?

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;n32514620]

Lmao.....you really are a clown!!! Show me a SINGLE post where I've claimed the onus is on the champion to seek a rematch. I've always maintained its on the loser. The winner has no reason to chase a rematch, THEY WON!!

Who he may or may not beat is irrelevant and unprovoked. But the FACT remains he didn't fight the same level of competition

Why would I wager with you? I'll be rooting for him to get in first off. And second, we all know you don't honor your wagers. Remember when you said Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp and you welched on that?

GGG was a wonderful fighter, and close to top 10 in my opinion. You're the one trying to recklessly put him in the top 10 over Flowers who simply had the better wins in his career. If you want to bet something we can bet nobody Golovking won against gets in the HOF. it's a perfect bet for you because you can wait forever hoping one does. Flowers on the other hand....his resume is littered with HOF fighters. Am I wrong?

- - When Ali ducked the $10 mil 50/50 split vs Foreman in Indonesia to go podunk Ohio for a scrawny $Mil to get beat up by Wepner, that's poor $$$management that U also excel at.

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;n32514769]

- - When Ali ducked the $10 mil 50/50 split vs Foreman in Indonesia to go podunk Ohio for a scrawny $Mil to get beat up by Wepner, that's poor $$$management that U also excel at.

Ali fought Wepner in March 1975.

Foreman did not return to the ring until February 1976

No 10 mil offer came from Indonesia.

• On November 24, it was reported that Wepner's manager Al Braverman was in negotiations to line up his client against Ali, and that he was scheduled to meet with Don King in the next few days.
• Contracts signed by Wepner somewhere between December 15 and December 22, 1974.
• On December 24, a memorandum was signed which guaranteed that Herbert Muhammad's legal firm C.B. Atkins and Associates of Chicago has the right to negotiate and sign a match between Ali and Wepner "within 30 days of this memorandum".
• After the original idea to fight Ron Lyle at Madison Square Garden on March 24 fell through, Herbert Muhammad stated on January 14 that another deal was reached to fight Wepner in Cleveland; Muhammad said that although Ali had not yet signed the contract, "the fight was definitely on"; the contract was signed later that day.
• Ali earned $1.6 million and Wepner made $100,000.

[Willow The Wisp]

As is customary, I'll keep my list short:
(Note that the list includes Career Middleweights and a number of interlopers of note, such as Langford, RJJ and SRL).

My All-Time Middleweights Modern Era


1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11.Mickey Walker
12.Mike Gibbons
13.Bernard Hopkins
14.Jack “The Nonpareil” Dempsey
15.Tiger Flowers
16.Jake LaMotta
17.Gennadiy Golovkin
18.Freddie Steel
19.Thomas Hearns
20.Tony Zale
21.Charley Burley
22.Tommy Ryan
23.Marcel Thil
24.Charles "Kid" McCoy
25.Georges Carpentier
26.Rocky Graziano
27.Jeff Smith
28.Richard Tiger
29.Roberto Duran
30.Mike McCallum
31.Billy Papke
32.Gene Fullmer
33.Holman Williams
34.Mike O’Dowd
35.Les Darcy
36.Lou Brouillard
37.Eddie McGootry
38.Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
39.Eddie Booker
40.Frank Klaus
41.Al Hostak
42.Buck Crouse
43.Georgie Abrams
44.Emile Griffith
45.Jimmy Clabby
46.Leo Houck
47.Vince Dundee
48.Rodrigo Valdez
49.Harry Balsamo
50.Teddy Yarosz
51.Nino Benvenuti
52.Joey Giardello
53.James Toney
54.Ken Overlin
55.Al McCoy
56.Carmen Basilio
57."Bad" Benny Briscoe
58.Sergio Martinez
59.Laszlo Papp
60.Mike O'Dowd
61.Julian Jackson
62.George Chip
63.Lloyd Marshall
64.Carl "Bobo" Olsen
65.Ceferino Garcia
66.Fred Apostoli
67.Gustav Scholz
68.Kelly Pavlik
69.Michael Nunn
70.Randy Turpin
71.Charles Humez
72.Chris Eubank
73.Sumbu Kalambay
74.Nigel Benn
75.Johnny Wilson
76.Ronald "Winky" Wright
77.Alan Minter
78.Ace Hudkins
79.Gerald McClellan
80.Paul Pender
8.Arthur Abraham
82.Robert Villemain
83.Vito Antuofermo
84.Rene DeVos
85.Jack Chase
86.Hugo Corro
87.Terry Downs
88.Holly Mims
89.Miguel Cotto
90.Dave Sands
91.Hugo Kelly
92.Jock "Rochdale Thunderbolt" McAvoy
93."Cyclone" Johnny Thompson
94.Dave Shade
95.George Benton
96.Clarence Alabama Kid
97."Allentown" Joe Gans
98.Young Ahearn
99.Jermall Charlo
100.Mike Donovan
101.Jermain Taylor
102.Ben "Belter" Brown
103.Steve Collins
104.Denny "Bulldog" Harrington
105.Leo Lomski
106.John "The Beast" Mugabi
107.Frank Moody
108.William "Gorilla" Jones
109.Kenny Watkins
110.George Rooke
111.Evelio "Kid" Turnero
112.Frank Battaglia
113.Johnny Howard
114.John David Jackson
115.Frankie Schoell
116.Elsworth "Spider" Webb
117.Joey Archer
118.Steve Belloise
119.Antonio Fernandez
120.Billy Soose
121.Mustafa Hamsho
122.Eduardo Lausse
123.Ignasio Ara
124.Ruben "Hurricane" Carter
125.Jean Claude Bouttier
126.Edward McGlinchey
127.Percey "Pal" Reed
128.Rory Calhoun
129.Ben Jeby
130.Cyrille Delannoit
131.Ralph "Tiger" Jones
132.Rocky Castellani
133.Bobby Boyd
134.Jackie Clark
135.Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts
136.Herol "Bomber" Graham
137.Jock Malone
138.Laurent Dauthuille
139.Bert Lytell
140.Charley Joseph
141.Floentino Fernandez
142.Tiberio Mitri
143.Juan Domingo Roldan
144.Yama Bahama
145.Willie "The Worm" Monroe
146.Tony Mundine Sr.
147.Fred Henneberry
148.Willis "Shorty" Hogue
149.Solly Krieger
150.Reggie Johnson
151.Jack Hood
152.Gratien Tonna
153.Babe Risko
154.Felix Sturm
155.Kell Brook
156.Paul Pirrone
157.William Joppy
158.Richard Turpin
159.Tony Sibson
160.Luis Folledo
161."Sugar" Ray Seales
162.Dwight Davidson
163.Tom Bogs
164.Carmen Barth
165.Sam Soliman
166.Keith Holmes
167.Tony Licata
168.Daniel Jacobs
169.Ossie Stewart
170.Salvatore Affinito
171.Lamar Parks
172.Artie Townie
173.Gene "Silent" Hairston
174.Daniel Geale
175.Miguel de Oliveira
176.Curtis Parker
177.Young Terry
178."Dangerous" Don Lee
179.Meyer Grace
180.Joe "Bolo" Blackwood
181.Al Trainor
182.Rosy Baker
183.Marco Antonio Rubio
184.Howard Eastman
185.Mel "Killer" Brown
186.Gomeo Brennan
187.Walter Cartier
188.Eugene "Cyclone" Hart
189.Wilford Scypion
190.Joe Carter
191.Nasim Max Cohen
192.Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
193.Atilio Sabatino
191.William "Caveman" Lee
192.Jackie Burke
193.Hacine Cherifi
194.Erich Seelig
195.Jorge Castro
196.David Lemieux
197.Grzegorz Proksa
198.Johnny Rossi
199.Martin Murray
200.Kid Leonard

[DeeMoney]

As is customary, I'll keep my list short:
(Note that the list includes Career Middleweights and a number of interlopers of note, such as Langford, RJJ and SRL).

My All-Time Middleweights Modern Era


1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11.Mickey Walker
12.Mike Gibbons
13.Bernard Hopkins
14.Jack “The Nonpareil” Dempsey
15.Tiger Flowers
16.Jake LaMotta
17.Gennadiy Golovkin
18.Freddie Steel
19.Thomas Hearns
20.Tony Zale
21.Charley Burley
22.Tommy Ryan
23.Marcel Thil
24.Charles "Kid" McCoy
25.Georges Carpentier
26.Rocky Graziano
27.Jeff Smith
28.**** Tiger
29.Roberto Duran
30.Mike McCallum
31.Billy Papke
32.Gene Fullmer
33.Holman Williams
34.Mike O’Dowd
35.Les Darcy
36.Lou Brouillard
37.Eddie McGootry
38.Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
39.Eddie Booker
40.Frank Klaus
41.Al Hostak
42.Buck Crouse
43.Georgie Abrams
44.Emile Griffith
45.Jimmy Clabby
46.Leo Houck
47.Vince Dundee
48.Rodrigo Valdez
49.Mike McCallum
50.Teddy Yarosz
51.Nino Benvenuti
52.Joey Giardello
53.James Toney
54.Ken Overlin
55.Al McCoy
56.Carmen Basilio
57."Bad" Benny Briscoe
58.Sergio Martinez
59.Laszlo Papp
60.Mike O'Dowd
61.Julian Jackson
62.George Chip
63.Lloyd Marshall
64.Carl "Bobo" Olsen
65.Ceferino Garcia
66.Fred Apostoli
67.Gustav Scholz
68.Kelly Pavlik
69.Michael Nunn
70.Randy Turpin
71.Charles Humez
72.Chris Eubank
73.Sumbu Kalambay
74.Nigel Benn
75.Johnny Wilson
76.Ronald "Winky" Wright
77.Alan Minter
78.Ace Hudkins
79.Gerald McClellan
80.Paul Pender
8.Arthur Abraham
82.Robert Villemain
83.Vito Antuofermo
84.Rene DeVos
85.Jack Chase
86.Hugo Corro
87.Terry Downs
88.Holly Mims
89.Miguel Cotto
90.Dave Sands
91.Hugo Kelly
92.Jock "Rochdale Thunderbolt" McAvoy
93."Cyclone" Johnny Thompson
94.Dave Shade
95.George Benton
96.Clarence Alabama Kid
97."Allentown" Joe Gans
98.Young Ahearn
99.Jermall Charlo
100.Mike Donovan
101.Jermain Taylor
102.Ben "Belter" Brown
103.Steve Collins
104.Denny "Bulldog" Harrington
105.Leo Lomski
106.John "The Beast" Mugabi
107.Frank Moody
108.William "Gorilla" Jones
109.Kenny Watkins
110.George Rooke
111.Evelio "Kid" Turnero
112.Frank Battaglia
113.Johnny Howard
114.John David Jackson
115.Frankie Schoell
116.Elsworth "Spider" Webb
117.Joey Archer
118.Steve Belloise
119.Antonio Fernandez
120.Billy Soose
121.Mustafa Hamsho
122.Eduardo Lausse
123.Ignasio Ara
124.Ruben "Hurricane" Carter
125.Jean Claude Bouttier
126.Edward McGlinchey
127.Percey "Pal" Reed
128.Rory Calhoun
129.Ben Jeby
130.Cyrille Delannoit
131.Ralph "Tiger" Jones
132.Rocky Castellani
133.Bobby Boyd
134.Jackie Clark
135.Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts
136.Herol "Bomber" Graham
137.Jock Malone
138.Laurent Dauthuille
139.Bert Lytell
140.Charley Joseph
141.Floentino Fernandez
142.Tiberio Mitri
143.Juan Domingo Roldan
144.Yama Bahama
145.Willie "The Worm" Monroe
146.Tony Mundine Sr.
147.Fred Henneberry
148.Willis "Shorty" Hogue
149.Solly Krieger
150.Reggie Johnson
151.Jack Hood
152.Gratien Tonna
153.Babe Risko
154.Felix Sturm
155.Kell Brook
156.Paul Pirrone
157.William Joppy
158.**** Turpin
159.Tony Sibson
160.Luis Folledo
161."Sugar" Ray Seales
162.Dwight Davidson
163.Tom Bogs
164.Carmen Barth
165.Sam Soliman
166.Keith Holmes
167.Tony Licata
168.Daniel Jacobs
169.Ossie Stewart
170.Salvatore Affinito
171.Lamar Parks
172.Artie Townie
173.Gene "Silent" Hairston
174.Daniel Geale
175.Miguel de Oliveira
176.Curtis Parker
177.Young Terry
178."Dangerous" Don Lee
179.Meyer Grace
180.Joe "Bolo" Blackwood
181.Al Trainor
182.Rosy Baker
183.Marco Antonio Rubiop
184.Howard Eastman
185.Mel "Killer" Brown
186.Gomeo Brennan
187.Walter Cartier
188.Eugene "Cyclone" Hart
189.Wilford Scypion
190.Joe Carter
191.Nasim Max Cohen
192.Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
193.Atilio Sabatino
191.William "Caveman" Lee
192.Jackie Burke
193.Hacine Cherifi
194.Harry Balsamo
195.Jorge Castro
196.David Lemieux
197.Grzegorz Proksa
198.Johnny Rossi
199.Martin Murray
200.Kid Leonard

How do you account for and balance out the 'interlopers' when you do your list?

Clearly they were great, but have such a short period of time at the weight class?

[Dr Z]

While I agree he should have got the nod over Alvarez, the fact remains he never beat him. My point was from 2019 when those rankings came out until he retired in 1922, he didn't do anything to separate himself from those in the IBRO top 10. To say he will be in in the future wouldn't be based on anything he did, but rather people forgetting about other fighters. Do you not agree?

GGG vs Canelo

A few sample score cards

çBrian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin
Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw
Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw
Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin
Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin
Sports Illustrated: 114-114 draw
Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin
Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw
*******: 114-114 draw
Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin
Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw
The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin
Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin
The Associated Press: 114-114 draw
Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw
Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin
Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin
George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw
Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin
Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw
Sherdog . com: 116-112 Golovkin
Jai Bednall (news . com . au): 115-113 Golovkin
Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw
Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin
Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin
Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin
Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin
Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin
World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin


Media cards,

Harold Lederman (HBO Sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Brian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw

Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw

Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin

Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin

Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin

Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw

Box Scene: 114-114 draw

Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin

Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw

The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin

Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin

Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw

Sherdog: 116-112 Golovkin

Jai Bednall (news.com.au): 115-113 Golovkin

Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw

Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin


Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin

Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin

The Associated Press: 114-114 draw

Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw

Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin

Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin

Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin

George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw

Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin

World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin

Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin

[Willie Pep 229]

Yeah but all that point-counting logic doesn't do much good for anybody.

There was big money in a rematched draw, and the fighters cashed in. Both fighters. Plus we got another go.

You guys with all your justice and fairness, that stuff cost fighters money, and we get less fights.

If it's a close enough fight to call it a draw, then call it a draw and lets do it again.

Everyone wins, fighters, fans, broadcasters, IRS.

Not only is this hair-splitting of rounds terribly annoying, it takes money away from the fighters.

We need more draws.

[Willow The Wisp]

How do you account for and balance out the 'interlopers' when you do your list?

Clearly they were great, but have such a short period of time at the weight class?

It's a great question. Great in the division or Great passing through?
That's always a quandry.

I award points relating to a wide range of career factors, and I give those weight, according to the circumstances.

You're obligated to do a similar multifaceted analysis weighing a single fighter's longevity as a force in the sport as a whole. Take a fighter like say, Joe Joyce. Does he get points off for coming and going as quick as you can say Jack Flash? Yes. But while he was firing on all his cylinders he ate up Daniel Dubois and Joseph Parker like a Bengal tiger eats up a little lost child, and that fact sticks around forever. I mean....who does that???
So for briefly being that guy, Joyce receives counter weights. It's a studied formula.

[JAB5239]

GGG vs Canelo

A few sample score cards

çBrian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin
Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw
Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw
Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin
Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin
Sports Illustrated: 114-114 draw
Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin
Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw
*******: 114-114 draw
Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin
Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw
The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin
Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin
The Associated Press: 114-114 draw
Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw
Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin
Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin
George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw
Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin
Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw
Sherdog . com: 116-112 Golovkin
Jai Bednall (news . com . au): 115-113 Golovkin
Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw
Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin
Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin
Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin
Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin
Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin
World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin


Media cards,

Harold Lederman (HBO Sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Brian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw

Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw

Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin

Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin

Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin

Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw

Box Scene: 114-114 draw

Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin

Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw

The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin

Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin

Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw

Sherdog: 116-112 Golovkin

Jai Bednall (news.com.au): 115-113 Golovkin

Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw

Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin


Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin

Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin

The Associated Press: 114-114 draw

Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw

Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin

Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin

Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin

George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw

Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin

World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin

Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin

Since we're counting losses as wins i guess we can add Walker to Flowers win column.

[Willow The Wisp]

Since we're counting losses as wins i guess we can add Walker to Flowers win column.

It's a slippery slope for sure.

Ever happen to judge fights? Don't stop to blow your nose! Let that **** run into your mustache for certain.

Even then, it's never like scoring a base hit or if the ball went through the rim during play.
It's a lot more like scoring high diving or gymnastics when you get down to control, effective aggression and ring generalship. Form and style won't left you ever completely remove the subjectivity!


I appreciate the posts (Like Doc Z's here) for the effort and information they can provide; even when the subject of the debate seems to me like arguing over how many of heaven's angels can dance in the head of a pin.