Where Does Golovkin Rank Among The All Time Middles?

[Haka]

That's not how it works. It has to be done in the ring. Not with speculation.

True, but if nobody wants to fight it has to count for something.

[joseph5620]

Maybe very old men will forget or in the IBRO's case because they are mostly older gentlemen 60 or older, some will die in the next 15 years or so when the next poll comes out. That will impact the rankings of many of the fighters pre 1960. So on that point I agree with you.

Every title defense adds something and GGG has three more in his time 2019-2022 and vs. ranked guys, which I believe adds something to his resume. So on that point I disagree with you.

On film GGG would beat many of the other guys " ranked ahead of him "

One point not brought up is that GGG is not an American, or UK born fighter, which IMO works against him a bit in the IBRO poll of mostly North American born members. Agreed?

In my mind GGG was robbed of victory vs. a cheated PED abuser who was boxing golden goose at the time and his team had " influence " over the judging. I hate when this happens in boxing and count this as a win for GGG.


joseph5620 and Jab5239



So what did GGG do?

Win every match until he was 36+ years old

Win 20 title matches

He was never floored by a punch.

Achieved boxing's #1 pound for pound rankings

Have a very high round won to rounds lost ratio.

Owns over of the highest KO% indivision history.


Match that vs. his peers ranked above him in the IBRO poll if you dare. Match his oppons total wins and losses vs others if you dare.

The comeback is he did face the same quality of guys. Fair I point out his resume did not include famous men who were blown up lightweights to welterweight! These men were not natural middles. They are right, his legacy is not made up from fighters who moved up from those weight classes. I say men from these classes avoided him. Could you imagine Mayweghter vs. GGG? How about Cotto vs GGG? Neither can I.'


I say GGG will be a 1st ballot hall of fame guy, and leading vote receiver his year of induction. Such is the ultimate honor in boxing.

Fights are not won "on film" they are won in the ring. You're ranking Golovkin based on your own fantasies. Not what he actually did in his career. That's not how it works and never will be.


How many fighters going to the Hall of Fame did Golovkin ever beat? At least for me that matters when ranking a fighter in All time rankings. Don't even bother saying Canelo because he never beat Canelo. Both fights were close and I gave Golovkin the edge in the first fight and had him losing the second. But neither was the huge robbery that Golovkin's fans want everyone to believe although I'll acknowledge one of the scorecards favoring Canelo in the first fight was disgraceful.

[The Big Dunce]

More nonsense.. Golovkin was willing to fight Julio Caesar Chavez at 168 and also Carl Froch but would not fight Ward at any weight above 164 or at all. So even by your silly Mayweather logic and links, Golovkin ducked the fight with Ward.

Mayweather has never fought above 154 and only did it one time in his career which is why a 160 fight would be offered to him. Golovkin was always a middleweight who was not even willing to fight Ward at 164 which again indicates he never wanted the fight. He was willing to fight Chavez jr and Carl Froch at 168. So there's that.

Golovkin ducked a fight with Ward at 168 and 164 after claiming he would fight anyone from 154-168. This nonsense that you posted doesn't change that one bit.

Golovkin didn’t fight Chavez or Froch either, but if he had, they would have paid way more than Ward. If we are saying Ward chased Floyd for a big money fight, then it’s fair play when Golovkin chased Canelo, that fight made dollars and sense as they were both middleweights and on an inevitable collision course. Ward saying he would go to 160 only for Floyd reveals he was never serious about wanting a fight with Golovkin who was middleweight champion and under no obligation to fight Ward who had zero PPV drawing power. There was nothing to gain fighting Ward.

[The Big Dunce]

Fights are not won "on film" they are won in the ring. You're ranking Golovkin based on your own fantasies. Not what he actually did in his career. That's not how it works and never will be.


How many fighters going to the Hall of Fame did Golovkin ever beat? At least for me that matters when ranking a fighter in All time rankings. Don't even bother saying Canelo because he never beat Canelo. Both fights were close and I gave Golovkin the edge in the first fight and had him losing the second. But neither was the huge robbery that Golovkin's fans want everyone to believe although I'll acknowledge one of the scorecards favoring Canelo in the first fight was disgraceful.

How many HOF fighters did Hagler beat? Two? Hearns and Duran were coming up in weight to fight Marv and Duran already had 81 fights.

What were the greatest victories of Hopkins at 160? Two blown up welterweights. Bird-legs Monzon was beating on washed up relics after his 80 fight winning streak beating on Argentinian cab drivers.

Now tell us more about the great wins of Nunn who was inducted into IBHOF this year, waddaya got?

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=Dr Z;n32512970]

How many fighters going to the Hall of Fame did Golovkin ever beat? Don't even bother saying Canelo because he never beat Canelo. Both fights were close and I gave Golovkin the edge in the first fight and had him losing the second. I'll acknowledge one of the scorecards favoring Canelo in the first fight was disgraceful.
[/QUOTE


Since GGG retired fairly recently his count for the hall of fame victories is premature. Even you admit the first fight with Canelo was BS he drew, but one of the cards for him was disgraceful which is the reason he drew. So he won that one. I count Canelo as one HOF victory to be.

The others I just do not know.

I say GGG will be a 1st ballot hall of fame guy and the leading vote receiver of his class. Not many HOF fighters can say that! But enough about the hall of fame for now.


You seem to know something about the fighters. Can you put together your top 12 all time greats @160? I think you can handle that.

So you're just awarding wins because that's what you think? Official verdicts be damned!!

[Bronson66]

How many HOF fighters did Hagler beat? Two? Hearns and Duran were coming up in weight to fight Marv and Duran already had 81 fights.

What were the greatest victories of Hopkins at 160? Two blown up welterweights. Bird-legs Monzon was beating on washed up relics after his 80 fight winning streak beating on Argentinian cab drivers.

Now tell us more about the great wins of Nunn who was inducted into IBHOF this year, waddaya got?

Monzon's ,"washed up relics"
Benvenuti no 1
Griffith no1
Moyer no3
Bouttier no4
Griffith no2
Bogs Unranked but had been ranked up until the end of February of the previous year
Briscoe no6
Jose Napoles Welterweight Champ
Mundine no1
Bouttier no4
Licata no 2
Tonna no4
Valdes no 2
Valdes no1

Who should Monzon have defended against if not these ,"washed up relics? "LOL

[DeeMoney]

How many HOF fighters did Hagler beat? Two? Hearns and Duran were coming up in weight to fight Marv and Duran already had 81 fights.

What were the greatest victories of Hopkins at 160? Two blown up welterweights. Bird-legs Monzon was beating on washed up relics after his 80 fight winning streak beating on Argentinian cab drivers.

Now tell us more about the great wins of Nunn who was inducted into IBHOF this year, waddaya got?

I agree with your premise, and feel this to be indicative of modern boxing, and why its darn near impossible to compare resumes (without context) from modern fighters to older fighters.

So I wonder, how many fighters in the last 35 years have beat a future or current HOFer while that HOFer was in their prime and at their prime weight class? It just doesn't happen much anymore, and its why I stand against the premise of you have to beat a great fighter to be a great fighter. Lets face it, there are far more weight classes, fighters fight far less often, and fighters are significantly more protected.

So we are forced, as rational observers to base the evaluation somewhat on actually watching the fighters themselves (and not just looking up their resume), only to be derided for this subjective opinion, as if there is some universally based objective formula out there that can measure in ring ability while taking into account different opportunities brought on by a fractured sport.

[joseph5620]

How many HOF fighters did Hagler beat? Two? Hearns and Duran were coming up in weight to fight Marv and Duran already had 81 fights.

What were the greatest victories of Hopkins at 160? Two blown up welterweights. Bird-legs Monzon was beating on washed up relics after his 80 fight winning streak beating on Argentinian cab drivers.

Now tell us more about the great wins of Nunn who was inducted into IBHOF this year, waddaya got?

Hagler:


2 more than Golovkin ever did and both are better than anyone Golovkin ever beat or even fought. Both Hearns and Duran both won titles after fighting Hagler. Duran even won another one at 168 beating Iran Barkley who was much bigger than Hagler. Hearns went on to beat Vergil Hill( another hall of fame fighter) for a light heavyweight title. So your claim that either was too small for Hagler is bogus.

Nobody with any intelligence would claim that Hagler was bigger than Hearns who moved all the way up to Cruiserweight. He was 6-2 inches tall. And weighed in heavier than Hagler did. So your *Hearns was moving up in weight argument " is silly.

Bottle line: Hearns and Duran are infinitely better than anyone Golovkin ever beat.

Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years. Golovkin was never undisputed. In fact he didn't even hold belts for anywhere near that long.


Hagler was dethroned by Sugar Ray Leonard. Golovkin by Canelo. Who do you think is going to rank higher on all time rankings? Leonard or Canelo? I'll give you a hint: It's not the red head.




Bernard Hopkins:


Hopkins beat Trinidad and Oscar Delahoya. Both better than anyone Golovkin ever beat and two more than Golovkin.

Hopkins win over Trinidad is better than any victory on Golovkin's record. By far. The same Trinidad you're claiming was undersized walked right through William Joppy and knocked him out for a portion of the middleweight titles. He was actually favored to beat Hopkins. So your claim that he was undersized is false and a lie.

20 straight title defenses.in a single reign.

A middleweight champion for almost 10 years.


Unlike Golovkin, Hopkins actually won his unification bout and did it with decisiveness. He was also older than Golovkin so your age excuse won't cut it here.



Monzon:

Trying to place Golovkin over Monzon in middleweight rankings just let's me know how limited your boxing knowledge is beyond boxers that you apparently idolize.

Monzon was undisputed champion for almost 7 years and beat 3 hall of fame fighters. Golovkin beat zero so that's three more than Golovkin. Nothing on Golovkin's resume matches that.. Absolutely nothing.


Monzon was an undisputed champion and held that title for almost 7 years. He retired as an undisputed champion. That by far tops anything Golovkin will ever achieve as a middleweight champion.

Hall of Fame fighters on his record

Nino Benvenuti

Emile Griffith

Jose Napolies

Can you name anyone Golovkin beat that was better than this list?


That what I got.

[joseph5620]

I agree with your premise, and feel this to be indicative of modern boxing, and why its darn near impossible to compare resumes (without context) from modern fighters to older fighters.

So I wonder, how many fighters in the last 35 years have beat a future or current HOFer while that HOFer was in their prime and at their prime weight class? It just doesn't happen much anymore, and its why I stand against the premise of you have to beat a great fighter to be a great fighter. Lets face it, there are far more weight classes, fighters fight far less often, and fighters are significantly more protected.

So we are forced, as rational observers to base the evaluation somewhat on actually watching the fighters themselves (and not just looking up their resume), only to be derided for this subjective opinion, as if there is some universally based objective formula out there that can measure in ring ability while taking into account different opportunities brought on by a fractured sport.

A great fighter doesn't have to be in their prime weight class to still be considered a great fighter or a great win. The point is Golovkin doesn't have a win like that on his resume.

Hagler beat Hearns who in my opinion had a prime weight class of 147. Hearns was still a great fighter. Duran won another title at 168 pounds. Not in his prime weight class but Duran was still a great fighter.

Mayweather beat Manny Pacquiao who was no longer in his prime weight class but clearly still great.

Carlos Monzon beat 3 hall of fame fighters that were all above their best weight but still great fighters.

Hopkins beat Trinidad in their unification flght. Trinidad was in his third right class but clearly still great and it's a great win.


Golovkin has no wins like that on his resume and it's not the fault of modern boxing. He just didn't do it. He lost to Canelo and that is the only great fighter he's ever faced. He could have fought Andre Ward but chose not to. I know that was a move up in weight but it shows the opportunity was there. You can't use the era as an excuse.

[The Big Dunce]

Hagler:


2 more than Golovkin ever did and both are better than anyone Golovkin ever beat or even fought. Both Hearns and Duran both won titles after fighting Hagler. Duran even won another one at 168 beating Iran Barkley who was much bigger than Hagler. Hearns went on to beat Vergil Hill( another hall of fame fighter) for a light heavyweight title. So you claim that either was too small for Hagler is bogus.

Nobody with any intelligence would claim that Hagler was bigger than Hearns who moved all the way up to Cruiserweight. He was 6-2 inches tall. And weighed in heavier than Hagler did. So your *Hearns was moving up in weight argument " is silly.

Bottle line: Hearns and Duran are infinitely better than anyone Golovkin ever beat.

Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years. Golovkin was never undisputed. In fact he didn't even hold belts for anywhere near that long.


Hagler was dethroned by Sugar Ray Leonard. Golovkin by Canelo. Who do you think is going to rank higher on all time rankings? Leonard or Canelo? I'll give you a hint: It's not the red head.




Bernard Hopkins:


Hopkins beat Trinidad and Oscar Delahoya. Both better than anyone Golovkin ever beat and two more than Golovkin.

Hopkins win over Trinidad is better than any victory on Golovkin's record. By far. The same Trinidad you're claiming was undersized walked right through William Joppy and knocked him out for a portion of the middleweight titles. He was actually favored to beat Hopkins. So your claim that he was undersized is false and a lie.

20 straight title defenses.in a single reign.

A middleweight champion for almost 10 years.


Unlike Golovkin, Hopkins actually won his unification bout and did it with decisiveness. He was also older than Golovkin so your age excuse won't cut it here.



Monzon:

Trying to place Golovkin over Monzon in middleweight rankings just let's me know how limited your boxing knowledge is beyond boxers that you apparently idolize.

Monzon was undisputed champion for almost 7 years and beat 3 hall of fame fighters. Golovkin beat zero so that's three more than Golovkin. Nothing on Golovkin's resume matches that.. Absolutely nothing.


Monzon was an undisputed champion and held that title for 7 years. He retired as undisputed champion. That by far tops anything Golovkin will ever achieve as a middleweight champion.

Hall of Fame fighters on his record

Nino Benvenuti

Emile Griffith

Jose Napiles

Can you name anyone Golovkin beat that was better than this list?


That what I got.

Hagler was undisputed during the 3-belt era. Golovkin was unified champion holding 3 major titles as well. He was robbed against a washed up Leonard.

You got tripped up counting HOF opponents and now you’re scrambling for who fought bigger names. If you took context into account, Hearns broke his hands against Hagler and was moving up in weight, doesn’t matter what weight he fought at after. Duran moved up too. Injured his hand in round five. Trinidad and Oscar were not great wins for Hopkins who padded his record at 160 while hiding from 168. He struggled with Robert Allen 3 times.

Monzon beat washed up names on their way down. Again context.