The Terrible Trio. 50-0, 46-0 & 32-0. JEALOUSY

[MalevolentBite]

There's no drama, there's no greatness.

Greb breaking open Tunney's face makes Tunney greater than if that loss hadn't been there. Same with the long-count, the win counted more for Tunney.

Dempsey figured out how to fall out of the ring against Firpo, and comeback and win the fight.

Marciano's nose wanted to fall off his face against Charles, and people could see it.

SRR kept losing and regaining the MW Title.

That's stuff is great. Greatness creates drama.

Meanwhile . . .

Mayweather Jr., while fighting a championship defense, joined into a conversation with the bored announcers, about the NFL playoffs, literally

He was talking to the announcers about football while he was actually fighting. WTF!

That's the only memory I have of a Mayweather fight. That's not great stuff. Greatness creates drama.

P.S. I must retract. I have a second memory. Hatton knocking himself out with the turn-buckle. Not great drama, not great stuff. But that was funny.

So thats it. You want Floyd to lose or get beat up in a back and forth war ( drama) for him to be great ? I like the fact you really have to look hard for Floyd showing any weakness in his fights. The guy was a defensive wizard in the ring. Young Floyd was a more action fighter but he just never took a Lost like Pernall and Americans love Pernall. Some more than Mayweather which is crazy.

I get it. Watching Leonard lose to Duran then coming back and winning was a major achievement. However dont you think that falls on Mayweathers opponents more so then him? They didn't have the tools to really pressure him into deep waters. Maidana and Ortiz made it interesting. Ortiz made it dirty and floyd made it sneaky. That was a drama fight.

Ward vs Kovalev 1 was big drama and I am not even a Andre Ward fan but I respect him.

Calazage never had any of these type fight but the British fans never throw dirt on his name.

Maybe Americans dont respect people that come to fight. Which is wrong. Its boxing for a reason. Floyd fights in the pocket like James Toney but better.

[MalevolentBite]

So lets look at the similarities between all the fighters being brought up here, including Ottke, and see if we can find the reason for the hatred.

- Controversial Wins: Either a number of wins that they probably should've lost, OR wins against aged fighters. This angers people because you feel like it leads to these fighters being overrated. And when people think fighters are overrated they try to bring them down a peg. As written earlier, this leads to the fighters fans supporting them, and in turn the bickering causes both sides to become bullheaded and intransigent, growing into hatred.

- Undefeated Record: This further exasperates the above point. The fighter may have had some unfair wins, but the fact that they NEVER lost means they never got their comeuppance. Now people feel like they really need to take them down a peg. Some may argue jealousy in this regards, but I think its really more of the feeling that the fighter is getting more credit than they are due and those deemed 'haters' fight hard to balance the score in their own minds. This combined with the above really leads to people hating on fighters. For example, Canelo gets a lot of grief for fitting the bill with the above point, but just imagine how bad it would be had he never fought Mayweather or Bivol. This place would be 60% people tearing him down and 35% his fans declaring him the greatest ever.
And thats the second part of the undefeated record, and this whole process, it leads to the fighters fans to becoming more vociferous in their praise. As I stated earlier, its a chicken and egg issue, maybe the fans started building him up, maybe the haters started with tearing him down. Regardless it grows thing exponentially.

-Lack of KOs: Usually these fighters are winning by decision. Maybe thats why their is an increase in controversial decisions, maybe we just want to see power, but the four fighters here were not known for being guys who score KOs. A combined 50% KO rate amongst them, with the vast majority of those coming early in the career against lower level fighters. This may be why Marciano, though often denounced for the above two points, is not hated on the same level. He wasn't blocking or avoiding punches, he wasn't tying guys up. Yeah he was undefeated and got a lot of wins against old fighters, but at least he earned it the hard way the tought is.

Lack of Knockouts. I get that. But let's be honest thats more so for casuals. The high level you fight the more knockouts dont happen. Mike Tyson never knocked out a prime all time great fighter. He knocked out bums and fighters pass their prime. So maybe people dont respect certain styles of boxing then ? I feel like in the UK or Italy they don't care for knockouts as much for the smaller fighters. Bivol isn't winning by knockouts ( he's no longer undefeated) but people dont throw dirt on his name.

[DeeMoney]

Lack of Knockouts. I get that. But let's be honest thats more so for casuals. The high level you fight the more knockouts dont happen. Mike Tyson never knocked out a prime all time great fighter. He knocked out bums and fighters pass their prime. So maybe people dont respect certain styles of boxing then ? I feel like in the UK or Italy they don't care for knockouts as much for the smaller fighters. Bivol isn't winning by knockouts ( he's no longer undefeated) but people dont throw dirt on his name.

I think the lack of knockouts is more that they tend to be defensive fighters, or spoilers, who rely on winning by decision. The more decisions you have, the more likely you are to have a bad decision- and that leads to controversy.

Similarly, if you keep winning by decision, then odds are, in some people's minds, that you shouldve lost at least one of them. That with decisions there is an element of chance, and due to that chance there should be a mean regression and you should have lost a decision eventually. But for a fighter to continually win via decision, that allows people to assume there is something nefarious going on. That the fighter knows this, and can just play defense and rely on the perceived favortism of the judges to carry them.

Less about stylistic appeal, more about perception of unfair advantage

[GhostofDempsey]

I can also play that same game with Mike Tyson, Canelo, Terrance Crawford, and a few others. So really it comes down too. You are "hating" on his boxing style because its not entertaining?

Pretty much. Personalities aren’t a big driving factor for me. Mayorga and Miranda were huge trash talkers but they fought hard, never avoided anyone and left it all in the ring. Even Broner was unlikeable by many, but I thought his style was more entertaining. At least until his most recent fights.

A fighter can still be very good and overrated at the same time. I don’t count Floyd among the top 20 ATGs. He had great defensive skills but I found him to be boring, sometimes dirty, and I suspect he was juicing for quite some time.

[Coverdale]

Why is the history section being spammed with dross like this? BattlingNelson we need better moderation in here so it doesn't become like the NSB. Quality over quantity should be the aim.

[DeeMoney]

Can you name one mexican boxing champion that mexican fans openly disrespect? I can't think of one. Even Margarito, gets a pass. People dont even openly dig him down and his win over cotto was never over turned and he was still allowed to continue on his career. If Canelo was undefeated man, if you think his fan base is wild now, if he was undefeated he would be untouchable. Nobody would mention the failed drug test etc.

But Americans go out of their way to disrespect Floyd, if floyd was any other nationality they would call him a God. But other than That. I agree but man.

People really hate these three fighters more Ward and Mayweather.

I'm gonna try to answer this one as delicately as I can. First off, I am mixed race, but the plurality of anything I am is Mexican-American. I was raised in primarily Mexican-American communities, lots of Chicano pride. So I have seen what you are referring to, and agree to an extent. I imagine this is due to a stronger sense of cultural unity within the Mexican community. America is a melting pot of sorts, with lots of different cultures and nationalities, we are also huge geographically with lots of regional differences; so its easy for Americans to see a fellow American as not being the same as themselves. Additionally, as there are, or at least were, MANY American fighters, we tend not to look to one or two to represent our nation as a whole. Along those lines, and this is somewhat to a lesser extent, but America is the global power, we are dominant in many other sports and various fields. Even if you are a boxing fan, if the American loses well, boxing makes up a small part of what America prides itself on. However, as America has slipped in boxing over the past few decades, you do see more of this patriotism rising (I have openly, and biasedly, rooted for the next American heavyweight from Michael Grant to Deontay Wilder).

That being said, the Mexican boxing community is not the monolith some believe it to be. I remember Oscar De La Hoya being reviled within the communities I grew up in, especially after he beat Chavez. He was seen as not being Mexican enough, definitely a problem in minority communities, and there were lots of non-PC terms used to describe him. Granted, him being Mexican American makes this somewhat different, but JCC Jr. was born in Mexico and I don't know many Mexican fans who like him at all.

Even Canelo, doesn't have the universal respect in the Mexican community that some perceive. Its funny, I remember watching the Canelo Chavez fight in a bar that was probably 90% Mexican American. Most were pulling for Canelo, but many of them were disrespecting him- he was being taunted for ducking and marinating the GGG fight. Called a disgrace to Mexico for it. Months later, for Canelo-GGG I, I was at a different location, once again over 90% Mexican-American: all of them pulling for Canelo. They may have not respected him, but became prideful when he was fighting an outsider and defending their culture. But as I wrote above, there are several reasons that American's don't view boxers as defending their culture.

[MalevolentBite]

Why is the history section being spammed with dross like this? BattlingNelson we need better moderation in here so it doesn't become like the NSB. Quality over quantity should be the aim.

These fighters are retired so it's boxing history. If you dont like the topic why are on you on this trend then? I didn't force anyone to come here, nor am I basting anyone's opinion but now you want me flagged? Really ? So you have nothing better to do ? No wife, kids or hobbies ?

[MalevolentBite]

Pretty much. Personalities aren’t a big driving factor for me. Mayorga and Miranda were huge trash talkers but they fought hard, never avoided anyone and left it all in the ring. Even Broner was unlikeable by many, but I thought his style was more entertaining. At least until his most recent fights.

A fighter can still be very good and overrated at the same time. I don’t count Floyd among the top 20 ATGs. He had great defensive skills but I found him to be boring, sometimes dirty, and I suspect he was juicing for quite some time.

I respect your honestly. Do you think think all "slick boxers" are boring? I don't consider Joe Calzaghe as slick. Andre Ward style is just ugly. James Toney wss slick but entertaining. Also Tarver.

Did you like Chad Dawson ? Hes another underrated American P4P champion that didn't get his credit.

[MalevolentBite]

I'm gonna try to answer this one as delicately as I can. First off, I am mixed race, but the plurality of anything I am is Mexican-American. I was raised in primarily Mexican-American communities, lots of Chicano pride. So I have seen what you are referring to, and agree to an extent. I imagine this is due to a stronger sense of cultural unity within the Mexican community. America is a melting pot of sorts, with lots of different cultures and nationalities, we are also huge geographically with lots of regional differences; so its easy for Americans to see a fellow American as not being the same as themselves. Additionally, as there are, or at least were, MANY American fighters, we tend not to look to one or two to represent our nation as a whole. Along those lines, and this is somewhat to a lesser extent, but America is the global power, we are dominant in many other sports and various fields. Even if you are a boxing fan, if the American loses well, boxing makes up a small part of what America prides itself on. However, as America has slipped in boxing over the past few decades, you do see more of this patriotism rising (I have openly, and biasedly, rooted for the next American heavyweight from Michael Grant to Deontay Wilder).

That being said, the Mexican boxing community is not the monolith some believe it to be. I remember Oscar De La Hoya being reviled within the communities I grew up in, especially after he beat Chavez. He was seen as not being Mexican enough, definitely a problem in minority communities, and there were lots of non-PC terms used to describe him. Granted, him being Mexican American makes this somewhat different, but JCC Jr. was born in Mexico and I don't know many Mexican fans who like him at all.

Even Canelo, doesn't have the universal respect in the Mexican community that some perceive. Its funny, I remember watching the Canelo Chavez fight in a bar that was probably 90% Mexican American. Most were pulling for Canelo, but many of them were disrespecting him- he was being taunted for ducking and marinating the GGG fight. Called a disgrace to Mexico for it. Months later, for Canelo-GGG I, I was at a different location, once again over 90% Mexican-American: all of them pulling for Canelo. They may have not respected him, but became prideful when he was fighting an outsider and defending their culture. But as I wrote above, there are several reasons that American's don't view boxers as defending their culture.

Ok. So you said mixed race then said you are Mexican. Mexican isnt a race. So I am going to assume you are white or atleast in America you mark off 'white" on your documents which is fine. I doubt you are native American Mexican ( Aztec etc). So I will assume you have Spaniard blood and maybe white American. Thats fine. I actually have native mexican blood in my DNA but from the Yucatan/ Belize area but culturally I do not have any relationship to it, because i was not raised by it. However we can keep it base on culture. Mexican Americans and Mexicans always had a rivalry between each other and I know when one boxer regardless of them being Mexican born or American born if they fought another person outside of their cultural origins they will always root for their own people thats fine. But when we have an American champion who is facing a British person we shouldn't have a large crowd of White Americans , Mexican Americans, Cuban Americans, etc rooting against the American. That sounds and looks crazy. No other country will do that. Irish and English don't get along but they are not going to root against their country men if they went against the Chinese lol. People really hate floyd and Andre ward here lol.

[MalevolentBite]

I think the lack of knockouts is more that they tend to be defensive fighters, or spoilers, who rely on winning by decision. The more decisions you have, the more likely you are to have a bad decision- and that leads to controversy.

Similarly, if you keep winning by decision, then odds are, in some people's minds, that you shouldve lost at least one of them. That with decisions there is an element of chance, and due to that chance there should be a mean regression and you should have lost a decision eventually. But for a fighter to continually win via decision, that allows people to assume there is something nefarious going on. That the fighter knows this, and can just play defense and rely on the perceived favortism of the judges to carry them.

Less about stylistic appeal, more about perception of unfair advantage

Ok. So being undefeated is basically the underline on top of always winning by the cards. OK thats a justified answer.

So are you in this majority that feels like this ? I genuinely want to know.

I used to think the same way with rocky Marciano. I used to think he was beating up on older fighters and alot of people took dives. Eventually I just grew up and decided to give him his flowers and view his record as is but people will never give these three fighters the same grace but also Rocky was highly popular.

I get it.