Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[GhostofDempsey]

Wills not great? Come on now. He's got a better resume than Dempsey, he just didn't get the accolades.

There were plenty of writers and boxing insiders who weren’t all that impressed by Wills. Frank Menke, a highly respected sportswriter of that era didn’t think he was a great fighter. Neither did Ray Arcel. Number of articles describe his fights as dull, since he relied heavily on his size advantage with smaller fighters, often tying them up and fouling them. He was DQ’d several times in his career.

In 1926 Menke had this to say about Wills:

Will made very good money battling “just about the most mediocre collection of fisticuffers thst the mind can conceive”. Menke called Wills foes “has-been set-ups and ring wrecks-and still this man, favored as has been no other warrior in ring history, sobbed about being denied a “fair break.” Menke claimed Wills had dodged every good fighter for 3 or 4 years, and yet for some inexplicable reason, promoters permitted him to take on far inferior men. Since 1921, the only men Wills fought who had even a fair reputation were Bartley Madden, a human punching bag who couldn’t hit and had no defense, and Firpo, who was all washed up as a result of the Dempsey beating and fancy living. Firpo was fat, flabby, and crude, and yet Wills still could not knock him out, nor could he knock out Madden. The tip-off regarding how little the Firpo victory meant was when less than 3 months later Charley Weinert rose from a fistic graveyard and beat Firpo with ease. Bill Tate got a draw and won on a foul against Wills. After that, Wills refused to hear Ken to every defi that Tate slung at him. Gibbons agreed to spot Wills 40 pounds and 5 inches of height but Wills dodged him. Furthermore, he had repeatedly ignored challenged from Gene Tunney, and refused huge offers for a match with George Godfrey, another of Dempsey's sparring partners. Menke said it was Wills who was the most careful avoider the game has known. Yet so long as promoters offered him big money to knock off broken down wrecks, he would be foolish to do otherwise.

[GhostofDempsey]

Didnât Johnson have a rather easy time with him? Just mcvey was hard to get rid of? Being as sturdy and strong as he was.

McVey was a novice, had less than ten fights each time he faced Johnson. Still went 20 rounds each time.

[them_apples]

McVey was a novice, had less than ten fights each time he faced Johnson. Still went 20 rounds each time.

Ohh ok. So Mcvey was green when they met you are saying?

[GhostofDempsey]

One of the big tells that can help identify a man who's never been in the ring, and possibly, never even had to put down a drunk pedestrian who got up in their face; is when a faceless poster starts talking as though there's only been about 50 to 100 fighters or less in history who you can literally call "Great".
I've seen many fights of many kinds under many rules or none at all; and I know that you have also.

The work that goes into just becoming a 20 win - 20 loss level fighter would scare off 99.9% of all the gym **** you'll ever meet.

The skill ability between a 20-20 fighter and a non-fighter who sees himself as a tough guy or a great athlete is measured in light years.

Numbers help.
117 billion humans have ever lived on earth.
Wills and McVey are both among the 25 to 30 best.

If that ain't "great" in anyone's book, maybe boxing isn't the sport for them.

I expected better from you. I’ve got an extensive background in the ring and out. Competed as an amateur, was a registered USA Boxing coach for the better part of two decades. Fought and sparred plenty with seasoned amateurs and a couple of pros. That aside, I’m not sure why you think someone needs to have been in the ring to have a valid opinion. Plenty of historians never competed in or out of the ring and they are often quoted here.

I think there are too many “fans” who elevate a fighter’s legacy from sentimental bias rather than logic and reason.

[GhostofDempsey]

Ohh ok. So Mcvey was green when they met you are saying?

Yes. Far less experienced. As was Jeannette as well when he fought Johnson.

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey KOed Sharkey! Wills fouled out.

Dempsey KD Firpo nine times! Firpo took Wills the distance in what was called a stinker. The only KD comong on a cheap shot.

Dempsey fought Brennan, Miske, Gibbons and Tunney.

Wills also avoided Gibbons and Tunney. He also ducked George Godfrey who was the number one contender for Wills World Colored HW title. From 1921 on he hadn’t beaten anyone worthy of a title shot. Martin and Gunboat fought their last fight against him, all washed up. Norfolk lost twice that same year (‘22) prior to fighting Wills and was much smaller. Wills would struggle twice with Dempsey sparring partner Tate in ‘22.

[Willow The Wisp]

Dempsey KOed Sharkey! Wills fouled out.

Dempsey KD Firpo nine times! Firpo took Wills the distance in what was called a stinker. The only KD comong on a cheap shot.

Dempsey fought Brennan, Miske, Gibbons and Tunney.

Ya, he got a little adrenaline rush there; when his eyes beheld someone on a boxing history board wrote McVey, Wills were "not that great".

I totally give my buddy a pass. Made me chuckle too.

If they gave out Nobel prizes for boxing, McVey and Wills would have one.

If you Can't respect the fighter, stay away from the sport.

Dempsey's record was stellar IMHO.

[travestyny]

Wills also avoided Gibbons and Tunney. He also ducked George Godfrey who was the number one contender for Wills World Colored HW title. From 1921 on he hadn’t beaten anyone worthy of a title shot. Martin and Gunboat fought their last fight against him, all washed up. Norfolk lost twice that same year (‘22) prior to fighting Wills and was much smaller. Wills would struggle twice with Dempsey sparring partner Tate in ‘22.

Apparently he wasn't bad enough for Dempsey to fight him.

He didn't avoid any of those fighters. He definitely offered Tunney a fight. But he was #1 contender waiting for Dempsey to stop playing games. Here's another quotation for you to hypocritically dismiss. Langford called out Dempsey for all of the games he was playing with Wills and said the only thing he can think of is that Dempsey is afraid of him.

Dempsey himself stated Wills was a great fighter that would "lick the best of them." So there's yet another quotation for you to dismiss as well.

[them_apples]

Yes. Far less experienced. As was Jeannette as well when he fought Johnson.

I looked it up. He was indeed green in all (3?) fights. Apparently he took a real beating in the last one?

I think the green meter goes out the window if you face a guy multiple times. Cause you get used to them. This is why certain pros use the same sparring partners. Some guys can just learn your timing and hang with you no matter what.

[travestyny]

I looked it up. He was indeed green in all (3?) fights. Apparently he took a real beating in the last one?

I think the green meter goes out the window if you face a guy multiple times. Cause you get used to them. This is why certain pros use the same sparring partners. Some guys can just learn your timing and hang with you no matter what.

Ghostof is also not telling the truth, and he has been called out on this many times. McVey did NOT only have 10 fights when he first fought Johnson. On Boxrec, they list his record before his first listed fight there as 6-0-2. But that guy will just keep on lying shamelessly.