Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[travestyny]

Sam Langford saying Dempsey is scared to face Wills -- from Clay Moyle's biography on Langford.

What I do think, however, is that Jack Dempsey ought to give Harry Wills a chance at the title. By not doing so, I believe he shows he is somewhat afraid of Wills. It proves it to me by the fooling around he has done with Harry. First, he goes West and signs up with Floyd Fitzsimmons to box Wills and then he comes back East and signs up with Rickard for a bout with Tunney. I guess he doesn’t care for any of Harry’s game, else he would give the man who has been chosen as the logical contender for his title a chance with him.”

Dempsey saying Wills is a Great fighter: "As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter, who will whip the very best of them."
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[Bronson66]

There were plenty of writers and boxing insiders who weren’t all that impressed by Wills. Frank Menke, a highly respected sportswriter of that era didn’t think he was a great fighter. Neither did Ray Arcel. Number of articles describe his fights as dull, since he relied heavily on his size advantage with smaller fighters, often tying them up and fouling them. He was DQ’d several times in his career.

In 1926 Menke had this to say about Wills:

Will made very good money battling “just about the most mediocre collection of fisticuffers thst the mind can conceive”. Menke called Wills foes “has-been set-ups and ring wrecks-and still this man, favored as has been no other warrior in ring history, sobbed about being denied a “fair break.” Menke claimed Wills had dodged every good fighter for 3 or 4 years, and yet for some inexplicable reason, promoters permitted him to take on far inferior men. Since 1921, the only men Wills fought who had even a fair reputation were Bartley Madden, a human punching bag who couldn’t hit and had no defense, and Firpo, who was all washed up as a result of the Dempsey beating and fancy living. Firpo was fat, flabby, and crude, and yet Wills still could not knock him out, nor could he knock out Madden. The tip-off regarding how little the Firpo victory meant was when less than 3 months later Charley Weinert rose from a fistic graveyard and beat Firpo with ease. Bill Tate got a draw and won on a foul against Wills. After that, Wills refused to hear Ken to every defi that Tate slung at him. Gibbons agreed to spot Wills 40 pounds and 5 inches of height but Wills dodged him. Furthermore, he had repeatedly ignored challenged from Gene Tunney, and refused huge offers for a match with George Godfrey, another of Dempsey's sparring partners. Menke said it was Wills who was the most careful avoider the game has known. Yet so long as promoters offered him big money to knock off broken down wrecks, he would be foolish to do otherwise.

There is some truth to this ,the problem with it however is the timeline.
In1921 Wills, acting on the advice of Paddy Mullins his manager Wills sat on his status as the number one contender believing, erroneously as it turned out, that public opinion would eventually force Dempsey to fight him.

It's Wills wins before 1921 that earned him his status as Dempsey's bogeyman,from1917 till 21 Wills beat Langford 8 times,Clark 5 times,McVey, Jeanette,and Fulton.

42 fights with only 1 loss to Jim Johnson when Wills broke his wrist and had to retire.

Wills had earned his title shot ,taken part in eliminators and won them only to be bypassed,his status as the most deserving of contenders is without argument.
He refused risky fights with Godfrey and Tunney later and having been ignored when title shots were being handed out I can't really blame him, he was aging a bit and didn't feel they were worth the risk.

Wills was the standout contender for several years he should have gotten a title shot.
In1926 Wills was 37 Steve Compton says 39,its understandable he was getting picky choosing his opponents.

To attempt to excuse Dempsey for not giving him a title shot by pointing out Wills later opponents were not the cream of the division,conveniently forgets,all those he had beaten earlier
I believe Dempsey would have stopped Wills and I think he thought he would have too," I could always beat those big, slow moving guys".
However that doesn't excuse Dempsey and Kearns for not defending against him.

[QueensburyRules]

Ohh ok. So Mcvey was green when they met you are saying?

- - 19 yr old with less than a dozen fights fighting a prime age JJ...

[Bronson66]

- - 19 yr old with less than a dozen fights fighting a prime age JJ...

And he only weighed 63lbs, and had a headache!

[GhostofDempsey]

There is some truth to this ,the problem with it however is the timeline.
In1921 Wills, acting on the advice of Paddy Mullins his manager Wills sat on his status as the number one contender believing, erroneously as it turned out, that public opinion would eventually force Dempsey to fight him.

It's Wills wins before 1921 that earned him his status as Dempsey's bogeyman,from1917 till 21 Wills beat Langford 8 times,Clark 5 times,McVey, Jeanette,and Fulton.

42 fights with only 1 loss to Jim Johnson when Wills broke his wrist and had to retire.

Wills had earned his title shot ,taken part in eliminators and won them only to be bypassed,his status as the most deserving of contenders is without argument.
He refused risky fights with Godfrey and Tunney later and having been ignored when title shots were being handed out I can't really blame him, he was aging a bit and didn't feel they were worth the risk.

Wills was the standout contender for several years he should have gotten a title shot.
In1926 Wills was 37 Steve Compton says 39,its understandable he was getting picky choosing his opponents.

To attempt to excuse Dempsey for not giving him a title shot by pointing out Wills later opponents were not the cream of the division,conveniently forgets,all those he had beaten earlier
I believe Dempsey would have stopped Wills and I think he thought he would have too," I could always beat those big, slow moving guys".
However that doesn't excuse Dempsey and Kearns for not defending against him.

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills on three separate occasions. The fight was difficult but not impossible to make. Wills lawsuits finally put Dempsey off and that was all for Harry. Wills doesn’t get a pass for ducking Godfrey or other opponents who Dempsey fought.

Wills wins over much smaller opponents speak to a good but not great fighter who was dirty and relied heavily on clinching, wrestling and using his size advantage. No one would ever say Liston beating Fullmer or Holmes beating Hagler would be a great win…Wills beating Langford was not a great win. Spin it all you want.

[Bronson66]

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills on three separate occasions. The fight was difficult but not impossible to make. Wills lawsuits finally put Dempsey off and that was all for Harry. Wills doesn’t get a pass for ducking Godfrey or other opponents who Dempsey fought.

Wills wins over much smaller opponents speak to a good but not great fighter who was dirty and relied heavily on clinching, wrestling and using his size advantage. No one would ever say Liston beating Fullmer or Holmes beating Hagler would be a great win…Wills beating Langford was not a great win. Spin it all you want.

And Dempsey ,my favourite fighter doesn't get a pass for not defending against his number one challenger for a good 4 years.Wills declined a fight with Godfrey when he was 37 years old,he felt he had done enough to justify a title shot, and he was right!

Drawing a comparison between Liston fighting middleweights and Wills fighting other heavies is blatantly dishonest.
Wills fought plenty of heavies around his size.
McVey Heavier
Thompson a couple of lbs lighter
Firpo Heavier
Fulton Heavier
Johnson Heavier
Tate Heavier
Jeannette A couple of lbs lighter
Any spin here is coming from you.
Didn't Dempsey defend against 2 light heavies? Carpentier 172lbs , 16lbs advantage to Dempsey , and Gibbons175 1/2lbs , 13 lbs advantage to Dempsey?
Doubles standards again!


You were talking about hypocrisy the other day,well Fella you're full of it!

[GhostofDempsey]

And Dempsey ,my favourite fighter doesn't get a pass for not defending against his number one challenger for a good 4 years.Wills declined a fight with Godfrey when he was 37 years old,he felt he had done enough to justify a title shot, and he was right!

Drawing a comparison between Liston fighting middleweights and Wills fighting other heavies is blatantly dishonest.
Wills fought plenty of heavies around his size.
McVey Heavier
Thompson a couple of lbs lighter
Firpo Heavier
Fulton Heavier
Johnson Heavier
Tate Heavier
Jeannette A couple of lbs lighter
Any spin here is coming from you.
Didn't Dempsey defend against 2 light heavies? Carpentier 172lbs , 16lbs advantage to Dempsey , and Gibbons175 1/2lbs , 13 lbs advantage to Dempsey?
Doubles standards again!


You were talking about hypocrisy the other day,well Fella you're full of it!

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills multiple times. Wills himself said Dempsey didn’t duck him.

I pointed to the Langford fight. Again you are mentioning bigger HWs who were either washed up or not so great.

Dempsey was closer in weight and height to Gibbons and Carpentier than Wills to Langford. Keep splitting hairs.

[Bronson66]

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills multiple times. Wills himself said Dempsey didn’t duck him.

I pointed to the Langford fight. Again you are mentioning bigger HWs who were either washed up or not so great.

Dempsey was closer in weight and height to Gibbons and Carpentier than Wills to Langford. Keep splitting hairs.

This is hilarious! Johnson signed contracts to fight Langford,McVey,and Jeannette,men he had already beaten and posted cash bonds as proof of good faith.

Yet you dismiss these as BS because you hate Johnson!lol

Your blatant hypocrisy and biased double standards leap off the page here!!!

Want to talk about weight disparity as a means of disparaging Wills?

In the fights against Langford in which weights are recorded we have the following.
SL HW
187 210
190 208
196 203
204 215
195 204
195 205
190 210
190 21 0
McVey Wills
217 206
219 208
These fights were in1914 McVey was not washed up!

Jeannette Wills
204 209

Firpo Wills
224 217
Firpo was 5 years younger than Wills

Fulton Wills
210 204
Fulton had won his last19 fights beating the likes of;
Flynn
Smith
Madden
Moran
J L Johnson
Cowler
Meehan
Langford
He hadnt lost a fight for 2 years

F Johnson Wills
203 215
Wills was 6' 2" and around 206lbs. Was he supposed to avoid fighting men like Clark, Langford , Jackson, who were shorter?

As I pointed out a long time ago your hate blinds you , you have no objectivity either concerning Johnson or your hero Dempsey.

You absolve Dempsey from any blame for not defending against Wills,but place the blame squarely on Johnson's shoulders for his defences against the black trio not happening,even though public statements as to why those fights were pulled were made by the Chairman of the NYAC the promoters The McMahon bros and H D McIntosh in Australia placing the blame fairly and squarely on the authorities and public opinion,not on Johnson.

William Muldoon as head of the NYAC was in the" cleft stick position".in his role he had to be seen to desire the Dempsey v Wills fight ,and consequently banned Dempsey from defending in NY against anyone but Wills,but privately political pressure was exerted on him not to allow the fight to happen.

Rickard haunted by the riots and deaths after Johnson V Jeffries also did not want to promote the fight and had no intention of doing so.

The contract wasn't worth the paper it was written on ,its obscure wording gave no dates, or purses or venue.Also Rickard would have lost his biggest draw.

Kearns did not want Dempsey to fight Wills for two reasons.

Wills was the most dangerous challenger and Kearns would have been out in the cold with his meal ticket,much devalued had Dempsey lost.

The other reason was if Dempsey defended against Wills a precedent would have been established.and the implicit,if unwritten law that white heavyweight champions did not defend against black challengers would have been broken.
This would have opened the gates for other black challengers like Godfrey ,and Kid Norfolk to make challenges that could no longer be reasonably dismissed on the grounds of colour.

Dempsey as champion must shoulder his share of the blame for the fight not happening,he was no longer the young contender in thrall to Kearns,he was a mature champion with a mind of his own.

I don't think a prime Dempsey feared any man ,but,by taking the path of least resistance,he allowed the status quo, the iniquitous colour bar that prevented blacks from challenging for his title to remain in place, so he was complicit in the avoidance of Wills and must be held to account for it.

It's a shame imo because I think he would have stopped Wills , removed his spectre from his record and in doing so enhanced his own all time standing.

I say this with Dempsey being my favourite boxer,but facts are facts and must be faced,even if you are never willing to do so!

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[travestyny]

If this beating continues, Ghostof will have to change his name to GhostofGhostofDempsey. Hypocrisy being called out starkly and facts keep getting in his way.

Stop the fight!

[Willow The Wisp]

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills on three separate occasions. The fight was difficult but not impossible to make. Wills lawsuits finally put Dempsey off and that was all for Harry. Wills doesn’t get a pass for ducking Godfrey or other opponents who Dempsey fought.

Wills wins over much smaller opponents speak to a good but not great fighter who was dirty and relied heavily on clinching, wrestling and using his size advantage. No one would ever say Liston beating Fullmer or Holmes beating Hagler would be a great win…Wills beating Langford was not a great win. Spin it all you want.

The idea that Dempsey's commitment to defending his title (The World's Title) against Wills or Godfrey would make the fights occur, is not in keeping with the societal facts present at the time. Dempsey had admiration for Wills, sympathy for his plight; and limited control over the social architecture of the times.

Imagine today, a Hollywood movie celebrity extolling the virtues of **** and child ******ation.
"Oh, the kiddies love it!", he claims.
How would the public react?

That should give us a sense of what Dempsey and Wills were up against in the 1920's; the Ku Klux Claniest decade since the 1860's.

Only a fool would try to superimpose contemporary thinking on another age.



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