The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

[Bronson66]

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

Well said!
Pollack always includes multiple contemporary sources.I can't recall either Ward or Roberts doing so ,and I have both their books.

Pollack has devoted a lot of time to Johnson authoring 3 books on him.He is famous for his diligent research ,and I have never a a bad review of any of his biographies,and I have Jeffries,Fitz,and 2 of the Johnson ones.

For someone who by the way has never read any of those three books, or indeed any of his other boxing biographies to call him a Fan Boy is an insult to a dedicated boxing author who ,not only is an Attorney ,but a licensed boxing judge, and referee.
Next time I speak with Adam ,I'll pass along Z's opinion of him.I already know his and Cliff Rold's opinion of Z! lol

[Dr Z]

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

[Bronson66]

I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

Name the primary sources that those two books Unforgiveable Blackness and Papa Jack cite as proof Johnson quit against Klon***e?


NB I have both books.

Randy Roberts,book,"Papa Jack" mentions the Klon***e fight in Chapter 1 page 12,he gives no sources whatsoever for his opinion.

Geoffrey C Ward's,"Unforgiveable Blackness" cites one newspaper on the fight.The Chicago Tribune May 6th 1899.
This is the Tribune's brief quote
" The long rangy colored man from Springfield", "Looking something like,Fitzsimmons,showed up well at the start,but weakened at the steady ponderous attack of Klon***e". page 28 Chapter1.

That is the only newspaper source Ward's book on the fight cites, no mention by the Tribune of Johnson quitting.
Here is another Tribune quote on the fight.

"Chicago Daily Tribune. "...Johnson knocked Haines down in Round one with an uppercut, and only the bell saved Klondyke..." Klon***e wore Johnson down with steady pressure. Haynes claimed 'black' Heavyweight title." Taken from Box Rec .

This is what George Siler the famous referee and discoverer of Johnson said about the fight.

" Johnson at the time was"fighting the free lunch counters of Springfield, for a living .When Conners brought him to Chicago to fight,"Klon***e",he did not have a thimbleful of victuals in his stomach.

He gave Klon***e a hot argument for 3 rounds,after which his strength gave out and he lost the decision.
The contest netted him enough money to fill out the wrinkles in his abdomen."
" Inside Facts On Pugilism".George Siler pages 112 and 115 chapter15.
I recently posted several of Pollack's primary sources and quotes on the fight.

[JAB5239]

I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

You haven't given any primary sources that they supposedly used. You went through this on ESB and were completely shut down to the point that you admitted the police stopped the fight. Now you're again trying to claim something you say you've read, but have nothing primary to attribute it to. You did the same when you said Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp for being to fast. You tried to say you read it in "Facing Ali", but when I bought the book (and already knew you were wrong before that) you backtracked.

[Dr Z]

You haven't given any primary sources that they supposedly used. You went through this on ESB and were completely shut down to the point that you admitted the police stopped the fight. Now you're again trying to claim something you say you've read, but have nothing primary to attribute it to.

Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.

[JAB5239]

Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.

No, you have refused to name any primary source either author may have used. You make things up and your track record proves this. There are several first hand accounts, none of which say Johnson quit. Than there is you trying to say he quit even though you were already forced to admit the police stopped it on another forum. Would you like me to post that entire thread verbatim? We could make a wager before I do so like we did when you tried to claim Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp for being to fast. This like that is just another lie by you. Now post a primary source either book used or just simply slink out of this like you done so many other threads after making ridiculous claims about fighters.

[Bronson66]

Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.

I have both books , neither book says Johnson quit.

Post which chapter and page they say this?
If you have these books that should be easy for you to do.

No, we are not saying Ward and Roberts are liars,we are saying YOU ARE!


Caught out in another lie,you should run for President,you have the necessary qualifications! lol

[Dr Z]

@ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit? It is them that I quote.

[Bronson66]

@ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit? It is them that I quote.

Name a fight in which the police entered the ring because a fight was fixed?

Neither Ward or Roberts say Johnson quit,if you are going to persist in this lie tell the Forum on which page they stated this?
I have both books,have you? Have you even read them ?

You made this up and now you've been found out,if you still won't admit this ,produce the quotes you claim to be quoting from, its as easy as that!

Who Jab was on ESB has nothing to do with this, its just your desperate attempt to deflect from answering the question.

[JAB5239]

@ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit? It is them that I quote.

First off, what does it matter who i am on another forum? Second, if you would like me to post every comment you made and the responses let's make a ban bet. Fair enough? All anyone has to do is Google " did Jack johnson quit against Klon***e Haynes" and the first thing that come up is that thread from ESB (Boxing 24). Now you're claiming a fixed fight? You really like to reach when besmirching a fighter, don't you? And no I'm not saying one author or the other lied. I'm saying both books were written MANY years after the fact and neither used first hand accounts that ANYONE is able to see. Not you, not anyone. My guess is Roberts heard a story and ran with it without checking it out, and Ward just copied that if said at all. Because the fact is the newspaper reports don't line up with Johnson quitting, but rather the police (which you have already admitted) stopping it.

By the way, any forum I've ever posted on I've always used the same name. Now either make the bet, show a first hand account or STFU. As usual you have nothing. Tell us again how Tyson was ahead on the scorecards against Botha. You can even post the scores again ya big dummy!!