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The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Dr Z View Post


    I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

    You haven't given any primary sources that they supposedly used. You went through this on ESB and were completely shut down to the point that you admitted the police stopped the fight​. Now you're again trying to claim something you say you've read, but have nothing primary to attribute it to. You did the same when you said Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp for being to fast. You tried to say you read it in "Facing Ali", but when I bought the book (and already knew you were wrong before that) you backtracked.
    Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post


      You haven't given any primary sources that they supposedly used. You went through this on ESB and were completely shut down to the point that you admitted the police stopped the fight​. Now you're again trying to claim something you say you've read, but have nothing primary to attribute it to.



      Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

      ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.​

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Dr Z View Post




        Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

        ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.​
        No, you have refused to name any primary source either author may have used. You make things up and your track record proves this. There are several first hand accounts, none of which say Johnson quit. Than there is you trying to say he quit even though you were already forced to admit the police stopped it on another forum. Would you like me to post that entire thread verbatim? We could make a wager before I do so like we did when you tried to claim Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp for being to fast. This like that is just another lie by you. Now post a primary source either book used or just simply slink out of this like you done so many other threads after making ridiculous claims about fighters.
        Last edited by JAB5239; 05-23-2025, 05:00 AM.
        Bronson66 Bronson66 likes this.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Dr Z View Post




          Yes I did. I listed two books which said Josnson quit. Are you calling Ward and Roberts liars? Are you saying they don't list dozens or sources?

          ESB is an uneven forum. Who were you ( what poster name ) there? I will accept you word, but it ask for verification. I must have posted that thread 10 years or more ago. Funny you do not list the majority of what I siad. Again the police entered the ring on fights where they felt guys were going through the motions or one quit. People don't like these types of outcomes and neither do the loser that wagered in the event.​
          I have both books , neither book says Johnson quit.

          Post which chapter and page they say this?
          If you have these books that should be easy for you to do.

          No, we are not saying Ward and Roberts are liars,we are saying YOU ARE!


          Caught out in another lie,you should run for President,you have the necessary qualifications! lol
          Last edited by Bronson66; 05-23-2025, 05:13 AM.

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          • #95


            @ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

            You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit?​​ It is them that I quote.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Dr Z View Post

              @ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

              You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit?​​ It is them that I quote.
              Name a fight in which the police entered the ring because a fight was fixed?

              Neither Ward or Roberts say Johnson quit,if you are going to persist in this lie tell the Forum on which page they stated this?
              I have both books,have you? Have you even read them ?

              You made this up and now you've been found out,if you still won't admit this ,produce the quotes you claim to be quoting from, its as easy as that!

              Who Jab was on ESB has nothing to do with this, its just your desperate attempt to deflect from answering the question.
              Last edited by Bronson66; 05-23-2025, 05:36 AM.
              JAB5239 JAB5239 likes this.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Dr Z View Post

                @ Jab5239, you did not say who you were at ESB. Why? And why did you go through the archives of a 10+ year old thread there and not list everything I said, only a small sample which you make a conclusion on? The police entered the ring they did so on many fixed fights and fights where a guy was going through the motions. Other times to prevent crowd safey and fights breaking out.

                You flat out ducked my question! Do you think Ward or Roberts, the two authors who wrote those books on Johnson were liars by saying he quit?​​ It is them that I quote.
                First off, what does it matter who i am on another forum? Second, if you would like me to post every comment you made and the responses let's make a ban bet. Fair enough? All anyone has to do is Google " did Jack johnson quit against Klon***e Haynes" and the first thing that come up is that thread from ESB (Boxing 24). Now you're claiming a fixed fight? You really like to reach when besmirching a fighter, don't you? And no I'm not saying one author or the other lied. I'm saying both books were written MANY years after the fact and neither used first hand accounts that ANYONE is able to see. Not you, not anyone. My guess is Roberts heard a story and ran with it without checking it out, and Ward just copied that if said at all. Because the fact is the newspaper reports don't line up with Johnson quitting, but rather the police (which you have already admitted) stopping it.

                By the way, any forum I've ever posted on I've always used the same name. Now either make the bet, show a first hand account or STFU. As usual you have nothing. Tell us again how Tyson was ahead on the scorecards against Botha. You can even post the scores again ya big dummy!!

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

                  First off, what does it matter who i am on another forum? Second, if you would like me to post every comment you made and the responses let's make a ban bet. Fair enough? All anyone has to do is Google " did Jack johnson quit against Klon***e Haynes" and the first thing that come up is that thread from ESB (Boxing 24). Now you're claiming a fixed fight? You really like to reach when besmirching a fighter, don't you? And no I'm not saying one author or the other lied. I'm saying both books were written MANY years after the fact and neither used first hand accounts that ANYONE is able to see. Not you, not anyone. My guess is Roberts heard a story and ran with it without checking it out, and Ward just copied that if said at all. Because the fact is the newspaper reports don't line up with Johnson quitting, but rather the police (which you have already admitted) stopping it.

                  By the way, any forum I've ever posted on I've always used the same name. Now either make the bet, show a first hand account or STFU. As usual you have nothing. Tell us again how Tyson was ahead on the scorecards against Botha. You can even post the scores again ya big dummy!!
                  From that thread on ESB.
                  I will have details in my upcoming book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson, but can confirm that Johnson did not quit. He was tired, hurt, and grabbing a lot, and the bout was stopped, but not at his request, but rather because the police thought he had enough, and told the referee stop it, which the referee did (refs were compelled to follow police orders). Sort of like Holmes-Bobick in the amateurs - Holmes was getting nailed hard and pressured a great deal, so he grabbed a lot and got dq'd, but probably would have lasted the full 3 rounds had he not been dq'd for holding. Given what we now know about Johnson's ability to grab and survive, I think it likely that he would have lasted the full 6 rounds and lost a decision had the police not interfered. Adam Pollack.
                  This goes to the weakness of Unforgivable Blackness, which is its failure to use or adequately cite local next day primary sources. What is Ward's source for that information?
                  It is only the quality of sources that adequately support a writer's assertions. His only citation for that fight is the Chicago Tribune, and it does not support his description of the bout.

                  I, on the other hand, will be using and citing several local Chicago next-day sources, including the local Daily Inter Ocean, Chicago Chronicle, and Chicago Times-Herald. The next-day Chicago Tribune didn't actually say much about the bout.








                  apollack, Jul 21, 2012Report

                  Janitor of ESB on Unforgivable Blackness.
                  1. The book itself has to be taken as a secondary source.
                    The most that the author can do is trawl through the primary sources, and try to work out what happened. You can circumvent the book by going straight to the primary sources yourself. Then if your primary sources are better than Wards, then you take them as a more direct resource than the book.

                    If other people are putting forth primary sources to support an opposing opinion, then the only possible value that the book could have would be to direct you to another primary source. If it does not do that, then there is little value in pursuing it further.July 21st 2012.
                  Know when you're beaten Mendoza. McGrain July25th 2012
                  It's interesting that you insist that drawing concrete conclusions is difficult because primnary sources cannot be trusted but still manage to draw a concrete conclusion in direct contradiction to the world's foremost scholar on the matter. Where I come from we have a phrase for such an individual.

                  "****ing idiot."


                  McGrain, Jul 26, 2012

                  Even if I produced multiple primary sources, you just dismiss them. I produced about a half dozen regarding Johnson-Johnson and the rest of the board chimed in with even more, you dismissed every single one of them because it suits you. You are ridiculous.​

                  McGrainJuly27th 2012.





                  Once again Z has diverted a good a thread into a Jack Johnson hate fest,without any evidence,proof, or primary sources to back up any of his BS.









                  Last edited by Bronson66; 05-23-2025, 07:00 AM.
                  JAB5239 JAB5239 likes this.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
                    Each of these men were told (or knew themseleves) that it was over; that their title (or atleast the fight itself) was lost, but still refused to stay on their stools.

                    John L. Sullivan (vs. Corbett)
                    Jack Johnson (vs. Willard)
                    Gene Tunney (vs. Greb 1)
                    Jack Dempsey (vs.Tunney 1)
                    Primo Carnera (vs. Baer)
                    James J. Braddock (vs. Louis)
                    Joe Louis (vs. Rocky Marciano)

                    To those who say the men of the past were not toughter than the men today. Show me who these men are.

                    Tyson?
                    Liston?
                    V. Klitschko?

                    Once these men knew defeat was inevitable they found a way to quit.

                    I am willing to learn.

                    P.S. Please don't waste my time telling me Klitschko was leading on the cards. A fighter knows when he is about to be beaten, that's when the injuries always seem to suddenly appear.

                    P.S.S. I did not include Ali (vs. Berbick) or Frazier (vs. Ali 3). Because both those men were physically restrained from fighting by their seconds. I have no doubt both would have continued.
                    How great these men were in heavyweight fights is up to the reader to determine,what is certain is they continued when they knew their cause was lost
                    Johnson v Willard
                    Braddock v Louis
                    Louis v Marciano
                    Moore v Marciano
                    Briggs v Vitali
                    Wilder v Fury
                    Ali v Holmes

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                    • Bronson66

                      From that thread on ESB.[INDENT]I will have details in my upcoming book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson, but can confirm that Johnson did not quit. He was tired, hurt, and grabbing a lot, and the bout was stopped, but not at his request, but rather because the police thought he had enough, and told the referee stop it, which the referee did (refs were compelled to follow police orders). Sort of like Holmes-Bobick in the amateurs - Holmes was getting nailed hard and pressured a great deal, so he grabbed a lot and got dq'd, but probably would have lasted the full 3 rounds had he not been dq'd for holding. Given what we now know about Johnson's ability to grab and survive, I think it likely that he would have lasted the full 6 rounds and lost a decision had the police not interfered. Adam Pollack.[INDENT]This goes to the weakness of Unforgivable Blackness, which is its failure to use or adequately cite local next day primary sources. What is Ward's source for that information?
                      It is only the quality of sources that adequately support a writer's assertions. His only citation for that fight is the Chicago Tribune, and it does not support his description of the bout.




                      Dude, Pollack uses sources and picks the one that suits his agenda the best. He under reports or omits anything negative on his subject material. That is part of the reason he is a fan boy.

                      He showed me his four sources for this part of the book. They different greatly from each other. I told him via DM how you come to that conclusion where your sources say different things and describe his appearance differently!
                      One of his " primary sources " describes Johnson as a 6'3" big man if my memory serves. Point being primary sources can have errors in them.


                      Johnson quit , two authors who researched the matter came to that conclusion from their sources which are listed in thier books.

                      That's all. END Email them if you want to know more of you unkown/


                      Read his book on Martin Hart's win over Johnson. He might contradict what he was in his book about Johnson.

                      Same subject, same man, different books. And a different read, see my point?

                      Likely not. You love a wife beating freemasons. Because you are one.​

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