The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

[Bronson66]

"Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klon***e’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way."


"In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime."


-Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

"Yeah the police stopped it, was it to prevent further punishment?" -Mendoza (akaDr. Z)

"It is written that Johnson quit. Since the authors of Unforgivable Blackness, and Papa Jack do not post here, no one can say where they got the information that Johnson quit. Yet they wrote that." -Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

The more I dig, the better it gets. If you admit the police stopped it you can't say Johnson quit. End of story!!

"Regardless, contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out,nor did he quit.
"Given what we later came to learn about Johnson's survival skills,it is likely he would have survived the full six rounds and lost the decision."

Jack Johnson The Rise,page 47 Chapter 3 Adam Pollack.
Could it be that Pollack isnt," a fan boy " of Johnson's ," but that Z is a hater of Johnson's? lol

[JAB5239]

"Regardless, contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out,nor did he quit.
"Given what we later came to learn about Johnson's survival skills,it is likely he would have survived the full six rounds and lost the decision."

Jack Johnson The Rise,page 47 Chapter 3 Adam Pollack.

Maybe he would of, maybe not. No way to really predict that. But I agree about what we learned of his survival skills. Either way I can't see a case for him quitting.

[solidman]

Am I factually wrong - or do you just want to believe I'm wrong?

You don't think, we have had modern fighters, who didn't look for the exit, but were willing to go on despite being seriously injured, like the one-eyed Basilio? Really?? Have you ever heard of Denis Lebedev ór Eric Morales?

When did Hagler ever prove his toughness, by refusing to quit in a fight where he was severely punished, with little hope of winning? I can't remember that ever happening!

And Duran wasn't exactly showering himself with "toughness-glory" in that embarrassing "No Mas" affair, was he?

Yes, Gatti certainly fought to the best of his ability, every time he was in the ring. And so did the gutsy Spaniard Kiko Martinez of more recent times. As did Chisora (already mentioned). And how about Mahyar Monshipour - have you ever seen anyone try harder in a losing effort (against Somsak Sithchatchawal)?

So once again: There have always been tough and brave boxers - just as there have always been those less gifted in that regard. Obviously, no era can lay factual claim to having the most courageous fighters!

guys like haney, stevenson, hitching, davis are killing the game

[Bundana]

guys like haney, stevenson, hitching, davis are killing the game

Yes, these fighters don't always engage in wild entertaining slugfests (to say the least!). In fact, many times you feel that, as a paying costumer, you have been kind of cheated out of your money, by boxers who ought to have put in a bit more effort/enthusiasm.

Take someone like Haney (for example), who was heavily criticized after his last match, earlier this month. Now let's imagine, that we time-machine him and his opponent in that fight, Jose Carlos Ramirez, back to the roaring '20s, boxing's "Golden Age" - and have them fight an exact replica of their Times Square snooze-fest.

How would the boxing world back then have reacted, following such a fight? The obvious answer is of course, that there would have been no reaction or widespread criticism - because very few, outside of those who saw the fight in person, whould have heard about it!

Boxers are under much more scrutiny now, than back in the day, with whole cards being televised over much of the world - so the entire boxing fraternity can see what's going on, and weigh in with their comments/frustrations. Something they of course wouldn't have been able to pre-TV, and before forums like this.

I don't for one minute believe, that there are more boxers stinking the place out today, than in the old days. The boring old-timers simply didn't have the spot-light on them, as fighters have today!

[Bronson66]

Yes, these fighters don't always engage in wild entertaining slugfests (to say the least!). In fact, many times you feel that, as a paying costumer, you have been kind of cheated out of your money, by boxers who ought to have put in a bit more effort/enthusiasm.

Take someone like Haney (for example), who was heavily criticized after his last match, earlier this month. Now let's imagine, that we time-machine him and his opponent in that fight, Jose Carlos Ramirez, back to the roaring '20s, boxing's "Golden Age" - and have them fight an exact replica of their Times Square snooze-fest.

How would the boxing world back then have reacted, following such a fight? The obvious answer is of course, that there would have been no reaction or widespread criticism - because very few, outside of those who saw the fight in person, whould have heard about it!

Boxers are under much more scrutiny now, than back in the day, with whole cards being televised over much of the world - so the entire boxing fraternity can see what's going on, and weigh in with their comments/frustrations. Something they of course wouldn't have been able to pre-TV, and before forums like this.

I don't for one minute believe, that there are more boxers stinking the place out today, than in the old days. The boring old-timers simply didn't have the spot-light on them, as fighters have today!

Watching fights onTV,I find British fans more tolerant of passive fighters than US ones.

[Dr Z]

"Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klon***e’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way."


"In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime."

Read Unforgivable Blackness. Ward the author is a real wordsmith. He says Jonhson quit like a dog. He was taking a beating and exited the fight by laying down under his own will. The police entered the ring when it was over.

Or read Papa Jack by Roberts, he says Johnson quit.


These are two books that tell the truth about their subject material.

This is enough for me. Pollack is a fanboy, but will give himself and out by reporting a few sentences about the other view, while salivating about this positive.

I hope our resident old, cranky, and hateful poster ( no name mentioned ) does not force yet another thread to be closed.

[JAB5239]

Read Unforgivable Blackness. Ward the author is a real wordsmith. He says Jonhson quit like a dog. He was taking a beating and exited the fight by laying down under his own will. The police entered the ring when it was over.

Or read Papa Jack by Roberts, he says Johnson quit.


These are two books that tell the truth about their subject material.

This is enough for me. Pollack is a fanboy, but will give himself and out by reporting a few sentences about the other view, while salivating about this positive.

I hope our resident old, cranky, and hateful poster ( no name mentioned ) does not force yet another thread to be closed.

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

[Bronson66]

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

Well said!
Pollack always includes multiple contemporary sources.I can't recall either Ward or Roberts doing so ,and I have both their books.

Pollack has devoted a lot of time to Johnson authoring 3 books on him.He is famous for his diligent research ,and I have never a a bad review of any of his biographies,and I have Jeffries,Fitz,and 2 of the Johnson ones.

For someone who by the way has never read any of those three books, or indeed any of his other boxing biographies to call him a Fan Boy is an insult to a dedicated boxing author who ,not only is an Attorney ,but a licensed boxing judge, and referee.
Next time I speak with Adam ,I'll pass along Z's opinion of him.I already know his and Cliff Rold's opinion of Z! lol

[Dr Z]

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

[Bronson66]

I listed two sources of books that draw from primary sources. Yes-- Police entering the ring happened when the fighter went through the motions or quit. One legged man, and you referring to the angry & old man who uses a cane? Watch out amigo, that cane can be used. I hear that it stings

Name the primary sources that those two books Unforgiveable Blackness and Papa Jack cite as proof Johnson quit against Klon***e?


NB I have both books.

Randy Roberts,book,"Papa Jack" mentions the Klon***e fight in Chapter 1 page 12,he gives no sources whatsoever for his opinion.

Geoffrey C Ward's,"Unforgiveable Blackness" cites one newspaper on the fight.The Chicago Tribune May 6th 1899.
This is the Tribune's brief quote
" The long rangy colored man from Springfield", "Looking something like,Fitzsimmons,showed up well at the start,but weakened at the steady ponderous attack of Klon***e". page 28 Chapter1.

That is the only newspaper source Ward's book on the fight cites, no mention by the Tribune of Johnson quitting.
Here is another Tribune quote on the fight.

"Chicago Daily Tribune. "...Johnson knocked Haines down in Round one with an uppercut, and only the bell saved Klondyke..." Klon***e wore Johnson down with steady pressure. Haynes claimed 'black' Heavyweight title." Taken from Box Rec .

This is what George Siler the famous referee and discoverer of Johnson said about the fight.

" Johnson at the time was"fighting the free lunch counters of Springfield, for a living .When Conners brought him to Chicago to fight,"Klon***e",he did not have a thimbleful of victuals in his stomach.

He gave Klon***e a hot argument for 3 rounds,after which his strength gave out and he lost the decision.
The contest netted him enough money to fill out the wrinkles in his abdomen."
" Inside Facts On Pugilism".George Siler pages 112 and 115 chapter15.
I recently posted several of Pollack's primary sources and quotes on the fight.