How many fighters have ever been P4P best in the world?

[DeeMoney]

For the sake of this argument, lets assume that at any given time there is one fighter who is the best pound for pound in the world. Furthermore, lets assume that being pound for pound best in the world is determined by how good that fighter is at that time relative to their weight; not necessarily how good their resume is, as that could reward fighters who are past their prime but had a good run and are just winding down their career.

With this in mind, how many fighters (lets say since 1900) have been at one time or another the best pound for pound in the world? This probably lends to you listing who they were and when they no longer held that title.

Now a couple things, having a loss doesn't necessarily mean you lose the title. We are looking at the fighter as they consistently are and assume that sometimes fighters have an off night. For example I would have SRR as the best P4P during the early 40s, and that stretch wouldve been continuous before '43 and after; even though he lost to Lamotta in February that year I still feel he was consistently the best fighter in the world at that time, and for me I wouldnt move him off that line for just one loss. Sometimes the best have an off night, but I guess thats easier to measure back when fighters fought more often.
Conversely, I don't think a fighter needs to lose to be moved off the top spot. If someone else comes around who has surpassed them, if they move up to a weight class where they arent as good, or they just slow down a bit but keep winning, you don't need to default to them as still your P4P king. A fighter need not lose this crown in the ring, and most often times they won't, theyll probably slip in ability behind the new king before they actually lose in the ring.

So how about it, how many men have ever been the best boxer in the world? Who were they? And when did they carry this crown?

[Marchegiano]

You mean post date it?

P4P is really just a promotional idea started by SRR's promoter as a means to sell him without trying to make him a HW. So guys like Nonpariel Dempsey could apply but the term hadn't entered boxing yet. NP would certainly be the man in any other verbiage. "Best at boxing if not for size" sort of deal in his day.


Under that definition there's always one. There has to be.

If we got by the reality of p4p and how often it actually worked there's actually just a few

SRR
SRL
RJJ
Mayweather

Done. These are the men main****** average joes know beyond the HW champ of the eras. Anyone else it could apply to got beat or exist before the term.

[IronDanHamza]

For for the sake of convo and context, since it became an actual ranking; 15 (or 16)

Mike Tyson
Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones
Oscar De La Hoya
Shane Mosley
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquaio
Roman Gonzalez
Gennady Golovkin
Canelo Alvarez
Vasyl Lomachenko
Terrance Crawford
Oleksander Usyk

Can't remember if Inoue ever has.

[DeeMoney]

You mean post date it?

P4P is really just a promotional idea started by SRR's promoter as a means to sell him without trying to make him a HW. So guys like Nonpariel Dempsey could apply but the term hadn't entered boxing yet. NP would certainly be the man in any other verbiage. "Best at boxing if not for size" sort of deal in his day.


Under that definition there's always one. There has to be.

If we got by the reality of p4p and how often it actually worked there's actually just a few

SRR
SRL
RJJ
Mayweather

Done. These are the men main****** average joes know beyond the HW champ of the eras. Anyone else it could apply to got beat or exist before the term.

Maybe I didnt phrase my question correctly. Please let me restate it with your list as an example. Sugar Ray Robinson retired in 1965, SRL began in 1977. Even if we assume that they were the P4P kings throughout the entirety of their careers (which probably was not the case) there would still need to be someone who was the best P4P in the world from 1966-1976.

Essentially, what I am asking is there has to be someone at any given time who was the P4P best. In your opinion who were these people who could claim that they were that at a given time?

[DeeMoney]

For for the sake of convo and context, since it became an actual ranking; 15 (or 16)

Mike Tyson
Julio Cesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones
Oscar De La Hoya
Shane Mosley
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquaio
Roman Gonzalez
Gennady Golovkin
Canelo Alvarez
Vasyl Lomachenko
Terrance Crawford
Oleksander Usyk

Can't remember if Inoue ever has.

So I know that these are the ratings via Ring, but do you think it actually changed this often? May Ring has it change after any loss at the top, but do you think that is enough for it to change? Maybe it does. Also, who would you have ranked prior to these years?

Sorry, got called away, allow me to explain further. Lets look at your list and start with Roman Gonzalez, he was at the top spot in 2017 until he lost to SSR. In response Ring dropped him off the spot and then elevated GGG to the top spot; the reason they chose G was because he was #2 prior to Choclatito losing, but the truth is he was not #2 at the time. His #2 rating was based on him being that good 3 or 4 years earlier, and then having continued to pile wins on his resume. By the time he reached #1 he was past his prime and not really as good anymore, but he was ascended to the spot because ratings usually are based on accumulated resume and rarely drop someone down without them losing.

So in the 7 years since Gonzalez you have had 5 fighters move into that spot. But the reality is (or at least I think) that it should probably only have been 2 or 3 guys. If its not based on resume from 3+ years prior, but more of a snapshot as to what the fighter is at the time.

[IronDanHamza]

So I know that these are the ratings via Ring, but do you think it actually changed this often? May Ring has it change after any loss at the top, but do you think that is enough for it to change? Maybe it does. Also, who would you have ranked prior to these years?

Usually after a loss yeah they drop down the list.

KO Magazine had Hagler P4P #1 before The Ring started doing it.

Before that? I don't know. Never something I ever thought about back then.

[The D3vil]

The Ring's only being doing it since 1989, with Mike Tyson being the inaugural "Pound for Pound King", so it hasn't been that many

But if we're going unofficially, you'd probably argue that before that

Hagler was the guy before he lost to Leonard.
Leonard & Duran probably traded it when they were fighting each other.
Carlos Monzon was probably the guy in the mid '70s*
Ali was probably the guy in the late '60s before he got exiled before Vietnam.
Robinson was the guy in the '50s.
Ezzard Charles in the late '40s
Willie Pep in the mid '40s
Armstrong was probably the guy in the World War II era
Barney Ross in the mid 1930s.
Gene Tunney in the mid to late 20s

Before that, guys like Greb & Gans were probably in there somewhere

Jimmy Wilde, too.

[JAB5239]

I'll try my hand at making a list. Best guesses up until Tyson.

Gans
Benny Leonard
Langford
Greb
walker
Armstrong
Robinson
Pep
Moore
Charles
Jofre
Carlos Ortiz
Napoles
Duran
Leonard
Hagler
Tyson

[QueensburyRules]

For the sake of this argument, lets assume that at any given time there is one fighter who is the best pound for pound in the world. Furthermore, lets assume that being pound for pound best in the world is determined by how good that fighter is at that time relative to their weight; not necessarily how good their resume is, as that could reward fighters who are past their prime but had a good run and are just winding down their career.

With this in mind, how many fighters (lets say since 1900) have been at one time or another the best pound for pound in the world? This probably lends to you listing who they were and when they no longer held that title.

Now a couple things, having a loss doesn't necessarily mean you lose the title. We are looking at the fighter as they consistently are and assume that sometimes fighters have an off night. For example I would have SRR as the best P4P during the early 40s, and that stretch wouldve been continuous before '43 and after; even though he lost to Lamotta in February that year I still feel he was consistently the best fighter in the world at that time, and for me I wouldnt move him off that line for just one loss. Sometimes the best have an off night, but I guess thats easier to measure back when fighters fought more often.
Conversely, I don't think a fighter needs to lose to be moved off the top spot. If someone else comes around who has surpassed them, if they move up to a weight class where they arent as good, or they just slow down a bit but keep winning, you don't need to default to them as still your P4P king. A fighter need not lose this crown in the ring, and most often times they won't, theyll probably slip in ability behind the new king before they actually lose in the ring.

So how about it, how many men have ever been the best boxer in the world? Who were they? And when did they carry this crown?

- - Ring didn't have P4P ratings until Mike Tyson who was the first #1 P4P.

There have been loads of top P4Pers since, but Manny holds the permanent record for the most P4Pers Fought, Beat, and KOed with the most consecutive years rated and with the most rated #1.

Nobody else is close...whooohooo!!!

[DeeMoney]

So I know I'm the one who posed the question, but after doing so I tried to figure it out, I did it just for the 1900s (list below). Please note, this is my opinion, opinions may vary, but I'd love to hear thoughts, critiques, etc. I put reasoning for some of them, others I think are pretty obvious. Please note, these aren't the Ring ratings for P4P, these are who I feel (and probably at times most would accept) as being the best pound for pound fighter in the world. And yes, I know the term didn't exist for most of the time, but we as rational observers can make judgements

Fighter	Years	Reason
Joe Gans	1900-1906	Starts to age out, Langford passes middle of the year
Sam Langford	1906-1913	Moved up to heavyweight regularly, not the best heavyweight so new P4P needed
Johnny Kilbane	1913-1916	Leonard not quite there yet, he's probably just a smidge better than anyone in the world
Benny Leonard	1916-1918
Harry Greb	1918-1923
Gene Tunney	1923-1927
Tommy Loughran	1927-1929	Tunney retires at the top, Loughran next best P4P. Holds on to it till he permanently moves up to Heavy, where he isnt the best
Mickey Walker	1929-1931	P4P best after Loughran moves up to a weight where he is no longer dominant
Barney Ross	1931-1936
Henry Armstrong	1936-1940
Joe Louis	1940-1941	Close to being Conn, but he moves up to heavy right as he wouldve passed Armstrong, gotta give the nod to Louis as being better.
Ray Robinson	1941-1952	Sadly coincides with Pep and Charles, but he is just consistently better (though wonder if there were times they peaked above him)
Archie Moore	1952-1955	Thought maybe Saddler or Marciano. Moore slightly ahead though
Ray Robinson	1955-1959	Not as good as previous run, but slightly ahead of Marciano and some up and comers
Carlos Ortiz	1959-1961
Eder Jofre	1961-1963
Muhammad Ali	1963-1967
Emile Griffith	1967-1969	Ortiz, Griffith, Tiger all on downside, Frazier, Napoles, Monzon not quite there yet, Griffith seems to be best at this time
Jose Napoles	1969-1972	Passes up Griffith before he beats him in the ring
Carlos Monzon	1972-1974
Roberto Duran	1974-1980	Sometime around here Duran reaches peak, passes Monzon
Ray Leonard	1980-1982	Duran no longer the dominant LW, SRL moves past him
Marvin Hagler	1982-1986	Spinks may have a claim, also Hearns as a SWW for a while
Tyson/Holyfield/Chavez?	1986-1988	Hagler aging out, one of these three is best, can't figure which one though
Julio Cesar Chavez	1988-1992	By now Chavez emerges as P4P
Pernell Whittaker	1992-1994
Roy Jones Jr	1994-2002

After RJJ it may be Hop for a year or two, then its Manny/Floyd time, but I aint gonna get into that battle right here.