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I missed mitt's list, yours as well. Seems youse twos have more in common than you care to admit Mister not going to add anything beyond criticizing others' posts
That said DeeMoney here is a list more inline with the question:
I always start these super open ended questions with a nod to those who came before.
I think Pythagoras of Samos should always get a mention in any endeavor to list the men who did well regardless of size. Pyathgoras is said to have been a tall skinny lad. Being from Samos it was their custom to shave their faces, grow their hair long, and wear pretty colors. The ancient Pygmachia has no weight divisions but it does have aged divisions. Mens and boys, simple enough. Facial hair was the old marker. Men grow beards. Pythagoras came to Olympia to sign up for the Boys Boxing tournament. The men there ready to draw lot made fun of Pythagoras. They assumed, because he was so tall, he could grow a beard and was hiding under the effeminate customs of Samos to be allowed to fight boys as a grown ass man. So Pythagoras instead signed up for the Men's Boxing and won the tournament. Best guess is abouts 16 late bloomer.
The purpose isn't to say look at this boy-man champion. It is to say take note, plenty of boys younger than Mike Tyson will have fought grown men in this era simply because their beard came earlier than his title run, and, anything to do with 'if weight is not a factor' should mention these boy-men boxers and their champion Pythagoras.
Next up is the Pugni. I'm really kicking myself in the ass for forgetting the proper nouns of this story but at least it'll make it quick. Pugni was super interesting in the whole contest being so different from the sport of boxing while featuring the exact same martial art taught by the same men and handed through the same men. It's bare fisted factional warfare on a bridge with going in the water or taking complete control of the bridge being the only way to leave the fray. The very best of them, whose names escape me presently, were kinda two-ton-tony shaped men. Potatoes. Short but bulky and belly bound.
Then the English era makes for pretty easy listing:
Daniel The *** Mendoza - 150 pounds of HW champion of England 1780s invented a lot but the most important is his basis for defense. English but parents from Spain
Samuel The Terrible *** Elias - Student of Mendoza School, showed sword and shield's *****s with Mendoza's rapier and dagger. 125 of **** you up 1800-1815. English but parents from Holland
Jack The Nonpariel Randall - Irish boy come up after the English ***s owned boxing for a couple of decades, 130s of relentless about 1815-1825
Barney The Star of the East Aaron - 1825-1835 Barney was an Englishmen of about 135lbs and a master of holding and hitting. Dead art now but ya know it'd last a while before it got ruled out. Never failed in ring, ruled out.
Johnny Young Duckro Broome - Older brother/manager of HW champion Harry Broome, Johnny was about 135, unbeaten in all contests at 10-0 which is great in BK eras, picked up LW title in 1840. He defended his title in 1842 but also attempted to get in the middle of the Burke-Ward Gang Affair which left his reputation so shattered he ended his life in his kitchen by knife to the neck in 1855. 1835-1840 were easily his years in boxing as the men regardless of size.
Old Nat Langham - The Englishman was near 150 early on and 160 later in his career. Middleweight champion in 1842 then went on a string of 6 title defenses before tasting defeat by Harry Orme in 1851 after 117 rounds of a dubious fight. Old Nat threw the sponge nearing the 3 hour mark. Nat would return to champion honors when taking out the next man on the list, Tom Sayers in 61 rounds. He'd finish his career by fighting HW champion Ben Caunt to a draw over 60 rounds in 1857. 1842-1857 but you could round if you like and it'd be fair enough.
Tom The Brighton Boy Sayers - Had a rocky go there with Old Nat stopping his first run at a title. Tom began in 42, took the L to Old Nat in 53 for the MW title, stacked W's until 57 when he took on the Slasher for the HW crown and won it in ten. 150 pound HW champion of England would make 4 successful title defenses before unifying with HW champion of America John C Heenan. After 2 hours and 20 minutes The Fancy declared a draw and awarded both men HW champion of the world. Only one of them was MW sized. At best. Even then it was well noted.57-60 then retired. I do think overlap years are fair to fudge if you reckon Nat was slipping earlier than 57 or Sayers had grown or whatever but for me 1857-1860.
Gypsy Jem Mace - Super famous so I'll just touch on some basics for p4p. 135-175, MW and HW champion. Unified with the US title. Promoted the use of gloves in boxing and could be argued to be a Pre-Sullivan QB Champion of the World. 1860-1870 give or take is super fair, 1860 he's MW champion, by 70 he's doubled up HW champion. He'd continue after the 70s but mostly just for show and ceremony.
Make Believe Billy Edwards - 130s in weight, he would have a bunch of exhibition with a bunch of men of all sizes but fought for titles around 130-140. The son of Barney Aaron was the big name at the time, he got taken out by a man called Sam Collyer, a fighter worth knowing in his own right, Sam would go on to lose a 3 fight series with Make Believe Billy. 68-71 are his years so easily overshadowed but worth mention. If For nothing else threads to smaller men. Mostly the 60s-70s it's fair to give to Mace and/or Allen but there is an argument for Billy in 1868-1871
Robert Delaney would be fair to list as HW champion in 1864. He had won the honor of "no man his equal" but was refused championship honors because he was black. This is key, not because he did not win his fight. He was undefeated, about 140 pounds, defeated both Allen brothers, and was black balled for being too good and not english enough. TBF to the English this wasn't the first time they'd done this and were not especially harsh on the black man for not being english enough. In all cases then men were English actually. Just not English enough. He died in 65. King retired in 63 and Mace doesn't claim until after Robert's death in 65. If he isn't a HW champion of England he's damn sure p4p king in 1864.
Tom Allen - Like Mace, super famous so I'll just hit the beats; 130s - 190s in weight, MW champion in 1865, Draw with Joe Goss sends him to America where he wins HW honors by 69. Had a hard time getting a fair shake but met and lost to Mace in 1870 as US champion. Mace would retire leaving Allen about the only talented man in the 1870s. Back in America he would recapture the US title and stack a few defenses before a draw and a loss to Goss in 76 but Allen then went back over to England and HW honors in 77 which he would hold until 1879 make a defense a year. 1870-1880 is pretty fair for Tom.
Joe Goss - Like Mace and Allen he's a LW to HW story. More successful than Allen in h2h competition between the three but less in range and scope. Like Allen most of his time is overshadowed by Mace. MW champ in 62 drops to Mace in 63 pick up draws with Mace and Allen and goes on exhibition with Mace. Picks up his win over Allen then gets back to exhibition touring. He's a fine alternative for Allen in 1870-1880. Fails in 80 to Ryan then tours with Sullivan and Donovan.
Charlie Mitchell - 130 to 175 pounder through his career, in 79 he'd fight his first title fight to a draw. LW. in 1881 he'd draw for welter and win light. in 82 he'd win middle and heavyweight honors. By 1888 he's drawing Sullivan so John can be called world champion. If he didn't earn world hw champion that day he certainly earned p4p. 1880​-1888 is super fair given he more or less retired from there.
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey - Fair to say where ever you believe Chuckles leaves off Dempsey begins. They have plenty of overlap. 130-150 fighter who started picking up title in 1884 and would more or less reign as the agreed best in boxing if not for size until 1891 when he lost to Fitzs for the MW title. It wouldn't be his only loss in that time but like Pac or SRR, NP always came back. The loss to fitzs marks the beginning of an end. Active until 1895 when he loses to Tommy Ryan. 1888-1895 for me but the numbers are easy to work with.
Bob Fitzsimmons - GOAT candidate. Everyone knows his story. Started about 150, heaviest is maybe 175ish. MW, HW, LHW champion, best years 1891 1899, in that time he beat the best of the MWs through HWs. Jeffries removed him from HW so he went and owned LHW until 1905 1895-1905 for me.
If not Fitzs then Tommy Ryan for the same years, maybe a little bit NP years too. 1891-1905 or abouts would be more than fair for Tommy. Basically picked up where Fitzs left off when he was at HW. Tommy being a 140 fight owned the smaller divisions, ww, mw, around the same time fitzs is leaving MW for HW.
Joe Gans - 1905 to 1908, I think we've got to a place in history where I can drop contextualizing and just name names and dates.
1908-1915 Sam Langford
1916-1922 Benny Leonard
1922-1926 Harry Greb
1926-27 Tiger Flowers
1928-1934 Slappy Maxie
1934-1938 Is probably the best years for Max Schmeling and I can't recall any one doing anything more impressive than him during that time. Didn't make LHW champ, that I know of, but being a LHW moved up to HW should matter on p4p.
1938-1943 Henry Armstrong
1943-1960 Sugar Ray Robinson
1961-1965 Eder Jofre
1965-1968 Emile Griffith
1968-70 Jose Napoles
1970-1977 Carlos Mozon
1977-1980 Roberto Duran
1980-1989 Sugar Ray Leonard
1989-1997 Pernell Whitaker
1997-2004 Roy Jone Jr
2004-2017 Floyd Mayweather
2018-2019 Manny Pacquiao
2019-2021 Canelo Alvarez
2021-Present Oleksandr Usyk
No crutches and off the cuff so I expect some glaring flaws. It's difficult to keep track of when you are and the who's that go with that when. Keeping in mind big picture while judging microcosm. Point is more to get a list out with a tad more depth than the same tired names we always see or copy/paste work. No offense to youse lazy, just saying the topic deserved effort so i gave it some. Probably because my first go was laziest.
Off the cuff with no crutch means i just sat here and typed it, check names and dates before you take it for truth.​
Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
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That said DeeMoney here is a list more inline with the question:
I always start these super open ended questions with a nod to those who came before.
I think Pythagoras of Samos should always get a mention in any endeavor to list the men who did well regardless of size. Pyathgoras is said to have been a tall skinny lad. Being from Samos it was their custom to shave their faces, grow their hair long, and wear pretty colors. The ancient Pygmachia has no weight divisions but it does have aged divisions. Mens and boys, simple enough. Facial hair was the old marker. Men grow beards. Pythagoras came to Olympia to sign up for the Boys Boxing tournament. The men there ready to draw lot made fun of Pythagoras. They assumed, because he was so tall, he could grow a beard and was hiding under the effeminate customs of Samos to be allowed to fight boys as a grown ass man. So Pythagoras instead signed up for the Men's Boxing and won the tournament. Best guess is abouts 16 late bloomer.
The purpose isn't to say look at this boy-man champion. It is to say take note, plenty of boys younger than Mike Tyson will have fought grown men in this era simply because their beard came earlier than his title run, and, anything to do with 'if weight is not a factor' should mention these boy-men boxers and their champion Pythagoras.
Next up is the Pugni. I'm really kicking myself in the ass for forgetting the proper nouns of this story but at least it'll make it quick. Pugni was super interesting in the whole contest being so different from the sport of boxing while featuring the exact same martial art taught by the same men and handed through the same men. It's bare fisted factional warfare on a bridge with going in the water or taking complete control of the bridge being the only way to leave the fray. The very best of them, whose names escape me presently, were kinda two-ton-tony shaped men. Potatoes. Short but bulky and belly bound.
Then the English era makes for pretty easy listing:
Daniel The *** Mendoza - 150 pounds of HW champion of England 1780s invented a lot but the most important is his basis for defense. English but parents from Spain
Samuel The Terrible *** Elias - Student of Mendoza School, showed sword and shield's *****s with Mendoza's rapier and dagger. 125 of **** you up 1800-1815. English but parents from Holland
Jack The Nonpariel Randall - Irish boy come up after the English ***s owned boxing for a couple of decades, 130s of relentless about 1815-1825
Barney The Star of the East Aaron - 1825-1835 Barney was an Englishmen of about 135lbs and a master of holding and hitting. Dead art now but ya know it'd last a while before it got ruled out. Never failed in ring, ruled out.
Johnny Young Duckro Broome - Older brother/manager of HW champion Harry Broome, Johnny was about 135, unbeaten in all contests at 10-0 which is great in BK eras, picked up LW title in 1840. He defended his title in 1842 but also attempted to get in the middle of the Burke-Ward Gang Affair which left his reputation so shattered he ended his life in his kitchen by knife to the neck in 1855. 1835-1840 were easily his years in boxing as the men regardless of size.
Old Nat Langham - The Englishman was near 150 early on and 160 later in his career. Middleweight champion in 1842 then went on a string of 6 title defenses before tasting defeat by Harry Orme in 1851 after 117 rounds of a dubious fight. Old Nat threw the sponge nearing the 3 hour mark. Nat would return to champion honors when taking out the next man on the list, Tom Sayers in 61 rounds. He'd finish his career by fighting HW champion Ben Caunt to a draw over 60 rounds in 1857. 1842-1857 but you could round if you like and it'd be fair enough.
Tom The Brighton Boy Sayers - Had a rocky go there with Old Nat stopping his first run at a title. Tom began in 42, took the L to Old Nat in 53 for the MW title, stacked W's until 57 when he took on the Slasher for the HW crown and won it in ten. 150 pound HW champion of England would make 4 successful title defenses before unifying with HW champion of America John C Heenan. After 2 hours and 20 minutes The Fancy declared a draw and awarded both men HW champion of the world. Only one of them was MW sized. At best. Even then it was well noted.57-60 then retired. I do think overlap years are fair to fudge if you reckon Nat was slipping earlier than 57 or Sayers had grown or whatever but for me 1857-1860.
Gypsy Jem Mace - Super famous so I'll just touch on some basics for p4p. 135-175, MW and HW champion. Unified with the US title. Promoted the use of gloves in boxing and could be argued to be a Pre-Sullivan QB Champion of the World. 1860-1870 give or take is super fair, 1860 he's MW champion, by 70 he's doubled up HW champion. He'd continue after the 70s but mostly just for show and ceremony.
Make Believe Billy Edwards - 130s in weight, he would have a bunch of exhibition with a bunch of men of all sizes but fought for titles around 130-140. The son of Barney Aaron was the big name at the time, he got taken out by a man called Sam Collyer, a fighter worth knowing in his own right, Sam would go on to lose a 3 fight series with Make Believe Billy. 68-71 are his years so easily overshadowed but worth mention. If For nothing else threads to smaller men. Mostly the 60s-70s it's fair to give to Mace and/or Allen but there is an argument for Billy in 1868-1871
Robert Delaney would be fair to list as HW champion in 1864. He had won the honor of "no man his equal" but was refused championship honors because he was black. This is key, not because he did not win his fight. He was undefeated, about 140 pounds, defeated both Allen brothers, and was black balled for being too good and not english enough. TBF to the English this wasn't the first time they'd done this and were not especially harsh on the black man for not being english enough. In all cases then men were English actually. Just not English enough. He died in 65. King retired in 63 and Mace doesn't claim until after Robert's death in 65. If he isn't a HW champion of England he's damn sure p4p king in 1864.
Tom Allen - Like Mace, super famous so I'll just hit the beats; 130s - 190s in weight, MW champion in 1865, Draw with Joe Goss sends him to America where he wins HW honors by 69. Had a hard time getting a fair shake but met and lost to Mace in 1870 as US champion. Mace would retire leaving Allen about the only talented man in the 1870s. Back in America he would recapture the US title and stack a few defenses before a draw and a loss to Goss in 76 but Allen then went back over to England and HW honors in 77 which he would hold until 1879 make a defense a year. 1870-1880 is pretty fair for Tom.
Joe Goss - Like Mace and Allen he's a LW to HW story. More successful than Allen in h2h competition between the three but less in range and scope. Like Allen most of his time is overshadowed by Mace. MW champ in 62 drops to Mace in 63 pick up draws with Mace and Allen and goes on exhibition with Mace. Picks up his win over Allen then gets back to exhibition touring. He's a fine alternative for Allen in 1870-1880. Fails in 80 to Ryan then tours with Sullivan and Donovan.
Charlie Mitchell - 130 to 175 pounder through his career, in 79 he'd fight his first title fight to a draw. LW. in 1881 he'd draw for welter and win light. in 82 he'd win middle and heavyweight honors. By 1888 he's drawing Sullivan so John can be called world champion. If he didn't earn world hw champion that day he certainly earned p4p. 1880​-1888 is super fair given he more or less retired from there.
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey - Fair to say where ever you believe Chuckles leaves off Dempsey begins. They have plenty of overlap. 130-150 fighter who started picking up title in 1884 and would more or less reign as the agreed best in boxing if not for size until 1891 when he lost to Fitzs for the MW title. It wouldn't be his only loss in that time but like Pac or SRR, NP always came back. The loss to fitzs marks the beginning of an end. Active until 1895 when he loses to Tommy Ryan. 1888-1895 for me but the numbers are easy to work with.
Bob Fitzsimmons - GOAT candidate. Everyone knows his story. Started about 150, heaviest is maybe 175ish. MW, HW, LHW champion, best years 1891 1899, in that time he beat the best of the MWs through HWs. Jeffries removed him from HW so he went and owned LHW until 1905 1895-1905 for me.
If not Fitzs then Tommy Ryan for the same years, maybe a little bit NP years too. 1891-1905 or abouts would be more than fair for Tommy. Basically picked up where Fitzs left off when he was at HW. Tommy being a 140 fight owned the smaller divisions, ww, mw, around the same time fitzs is leaving MW for HW.
Joe Gans - 1905 to 1908, I think we've got to a place in history where I can drop contextualizing and just name names and dates.
1908-1915 Sam Langford
1916-1922 Benny Leonard
1922-1926 Harry Greb
1926-27 Tiger Flowers
1928-1934 Slappy Maxie
1934-1938 Is probably the best years for Max Schmeling and I can't recall any one doing anything more impressive than him during that time. Didn't make LHW champ, that I know of, but being a LHW moved up to HW should matter on p4p.
1938-1943 Henry Armstrong
1943-1960 Sugar Ray Robinson
1961-1965 Eder Jofre
1965-1968 Emile Griffith
1968-70 Jose Napoles
1970-1977 Carlos Mozon
1977-1980 Roberto Duran
1980-1989 Sugar Ray Leonard
1989-1997 Pernell Whitaker
1997-2004 Roy Jone Jr
2004-2017 Floyd Mayweather
2018-2019 Manny Pacquiao
2019-2021 Canelo Alvarez
2021-Present Oleksandr Usyk
No crutches and off the cuff so I expect some glaring flaws. It's difficult to keep track of when you are and the who's that go with that when. Keeping in mind big picture while judging microcosm. Point is more to get a list out with a tad more depth than the same tired names we always see or copy/paste work. No offense to youse lazy, just saying the topic deserved effort so i gave it some. Probably because my first go was laziest.
Off the cuff with no crutch means i just sat here and typed it, check names and dates before you take it for truth.​
Willow The Wisp
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