Does anyone still think the old time heavyweights were too small to be competitive in the modern era?

[Bronson66]

Irondanhamza thinks because Marciano was working himself to exhaustion day after day and coming in at 187 that he would be stronger by bulking up and slacking off. There is 0 chance this is what would happen. Bulk does not automatically equal strength. Marciano was as strong as a bull.

If Marciano was working himself to exhaustion and running15 miles daily he would not be in any state to fight!
This is Marciano's training schedule.


"Each day for a month, Marciano has got up at 7 a.m. He then has a cup of tea (sugar and lemon) and usually runs between three and five miles.

At 8:30, it is a breakfast of fruit, cereal, two soft-boiled eggs, lamb chops, toast, and more tea.

He walks and naps until noon, when he has some tea.

Then he naps until his big workout at 3 p.m. After 4:30 he naps until dinner time at 5:30; after which he walks, plays ping pong, reads, or listens to the radio. At 8:30 he may have an apple or pear, and goes to bed.
Ninety minutes of training."

[Bronson66]

Marciano at 187 was the product of extreme hard work and discipline. In retirement he was over 255 lbs and was never actually âfatâ like someone today.

when people say he is 187 and too small I laugh at this notion because his light weight is a product of his training.

who in any world is 240 lbs while running 12-15 miles in boots every morning, on top of a whole days work of training. Itâs like saying the 237 lb version of Ali that fought Shavers has a chance against Fury but the 210 lb version in his prime is simply too small.

Marcianos last 4 rounds in a 15 rounder involved him throwing over 100-120 punches a round. In the heavyweight division this is brutal to crank the pace like this in the late rounds. Nothing can overcome this but conditioning alone.

I just donât understand how he gets written off for his weight but everything else he does getâs thrown at the wayside.

regardless of the Louis age, if he is 218 and Marciano is 184 - Marciano is giving up so much weight he shouldnât be big enough to beat Louis let alone outgun him with relative easy. Louis was the one who stated himself that Marciano was as strong as a bull.

Louis said Marciano was strong, he never said he was strong as a bull .That's just another of your little "additions",

[IronDanHamza]

IF Marciano was throwing just 100 punches a round, let alone120 that would be 1,500 over 15 rounds, or1,200 over 12 rounds as the two below did

• Ibeabuchi landed 332 of 975 punches, and Tua landed 282 of 755 punches. They combined to throw 1,730 punches, which set the CompuBox record for punches thrown in a heavyweight fight. Ibeabuchi also set the individual record for punches thrown by a heavyweight, which was broken three years later by David Bostice.

Ibeabuchi was235lbs Tua 226lbs

Just like stories of Marciano running15 miles every day it's BS!

And Marciano was fat in retirement,that is a fact.

The kid them_apples is funny bless him, he has not even the first idea how these things work. He’s made himself look incredibly foolish like this quite a few times on similar topics.

Marciano is only 185 lbs due to overworking essentially is what he’s saying Comical. Doesn’t understand how massive just a 5 lb difference in muscle is.

And to then claim Marciano wasn’t fat in retirement Beyond laughable.

[Bronson66]

It was always nonsense, for the most part.

Fact is, all of those guys would be bigger if they fought today because of PEDs.

Usyk himself was naturally a middleweight, who lost to Shawn Porter in the amateurs.

50 years ago, he'd be a light-heavyweight or something.

Joe Louis would be like 225 today.

Usyk was 19 years old.when he lost to Porter.
Jack Johnson won the Texas Middleweight title when he was 20.He stated he was in the condition of his life when he fought Jeffries,for which fight he was 208lbs.

[Bronson66]

The kid them_apples is funny bless him, he has not even the first idea how these things work. He’s made himself look incredibly foolish like this quite a few times on similar topics.

Marciano is only 185 lbs due to overworking essentially is what he’s saying Comical. Doesn’t understand how massive just a 5 lb difference in muscle is.

And to then claim Marciano wasn’t fat in retirement Beyond laughable.

Marciano lost 50lbs over an 8 month period to look credible in the computer fight with Ali,but Them Apples says he wasn't fat !LOL

[Willie Pep 229]

See, again. Making a fantasy version of these old fighters giving them new attributes to make it "fair". It's very childish and irrelevant. If you're gonna match up past fighters against present then take them for what they were. There is no prime "225lb Joe Louis" he didn't exist. And he sure as hell wouldn't be the same fighter he was if you start messing with attributes and history,

Why?

The whole damn thing is a fantasy. Why would one methodology be more valid than the next?

You (and others) say it is silly to adjust size to contemporary nutrition.

OK! So what about gloves? Does Jack Johnson have to fight with five ounce gloves with little to no wrapping?

Rounds: Does Fury have to go 45 rounds to win the title?

A 12 round fight for a world title would probably make Jack Johnson snicker at your rules.

No standing eight count; no kidney belts (weren't allowed until 1931); low blow foul rules have changed; No mouth guards allowed until 1929.

How would Wald feel about going 45 rounds, with no kidney belt, no mouth guard, no manadtory eight count, no neutral corner requirement, no rest period after low blows (the fighter is DQed, or the downed fighter has to beat the count or is counted out.)

You're making a laundry list of adjustments, each time to fantasize, but when Apple wants to make an adjustment for nutrition you call him "childish"? Seems an arbitrary decision to me.

You're not "taking them for what they were."

Hell even the boots have innovated several times over the decades and are much superior today. Does Jack Johnson have to wear circa 1900 footwear? You won't let him gain from today's superior diet, so I guess he needs to wear the old boots as well. You say you only take them as they were.

You all are making this up as you go, and that's fine, enjoy, but don't think there is a right way and a wrong way to fantasize.

[MikeyMike100]

Most of them yes

[BKM-]

Why?

The whole damn thing is a fantasy. Why would one methodology be more valid than the next?

You (and others) say it is silly to adjust size to contemporary nutrition.

OK! So what about gloves? Does Jack Johnson have to fight with five ounce gloves with little to no wrapping?

Rounds: Does Fury have to go 45 rounds to win the title?

A 12 round fight for a world title would probably make Jack Johnson snicker at your rules.

No standing eight count; no kidney belts (weren't allowed until 1931); low blow foul rules have changed; No mouth guards allowed until 1929.

How would Wald feel about going 45 rounds, with no kidney belt, no mouth guard, no manadtory eight count, no neutral corner requirement, no rest period after low blows (the fighter is DQed, or the downed fighter has to beat the count or is counted out.)

You're making a laundry list of adjustments, each time to fantasize, but when Apple wants to make an adjustment for nutrition you call him "childish"? Seems an arbitrary decision to me.

You're not "taking them for what they were."

Hell even the boots have innovated several times over the decades and are much superior today. Does Jack Johnson have to wear circa 1900 footwear? You won't let him gain from today's superior diet, so I guess he needs to wear the old boots as well. You say you only take them as they were.

You all are making this up as you go, and that's fine, enjoy, but don't think there is a right way and a wrong way to fantasize.

Rules are not the same as physical attributes, and the issue you mentioned is the reason I and most boxing fans tend to avoid matching up boxers pre Dempsey against the others who followed.

It is too bad that we can't really use Johnson, Jeffries, Willard etc. but that is an easy solution. All the others later on like the Louis', Liston's, the golden era etc. fought in a modern enough era and don't make these fantasy matchups silly at all.

That is very different than making Joe Louis gain 20 pounds because you feel it's unfair for him against the big HW's. And to make it worse you give him that extra mass and then neglect to adjust the man's speed, quickness, movement, durability etc.? Again, that's a fighter who has never existed. It reeks of desperation.

[Marchegiano]

Y'all watched a smaller man use his physical advantage over a larger opponent and still refuse the idea that weight is a two way street that represents both advantage in power and disadvantage in stamina.


Not the first time you've read smaller men have more stamina either.


So, WTF? Why is this thread 12 pages long?



The thing is, when you get ****** upside down in weight you should be ****** upside down in power and stamina but all anyone ever wants to mention is big = more power doe. Cool, you know how much more stamina Marciano had than Fury? How about Dempsey? Can you guess how much longer Dempsey can keep a high pace than Fury? It should be ****** levels in Dempsey's favor but the way youse talk is like power is the only variable. Yes Wlad was huge, also Wlad punch like 12 times in a round. For a ****ing reason. Put out a punch count like Marciano and Wlad's sucking wind like a turbine.



Your fantasy fights are ****** because the terms you fantasize in are ****** terms.



Want to know who has the most power? Talk about resume not physics. Because who you KO'd is totes more important, better evidence, and less subjective than kinematic chains.

Can a small man beat a big man? Well **** most of human history for one. For two, you know, biology, and thirdly physics, the answer is yes. Saw a man give up 50lbs and dom anyway? Who cares, let's talk about how even smaller is a bigger size DISADVANTAGE even though Fury got OUTWORKED.


****ing hell, you don't realize how dumb as **** that is?




Better tell me you believe Fury can KO Dempsey. Better not tell me his ****ing size alone gives him a free pass like as if Jack GD Dempsey doesn't have gas for days. FFS. You watched Fury get OUTWORKED by a 230 and question if a 180 can do it too without even considering how much ****ing worse that is for Fury. Just considering how much worse it is for the lighter man. Exclusively. But you're not dumb as **** though and your opinion is just a respectable as any other. Sure, dumbass.

[DeeMoney]

Why?

The whole damn thing is a fantasy. Why would one methodology be more valid than the next?

You (and others) say it is silly to adjust size to contemporary nutrition.

OK! So what about gloves? Does Jack Johnson have to fight with five ounce gloves with little to no wrapping?

Rounds: Does Fury have to go 45 rounds to win the title?

A 12 round fight for a world title would probably make Jack Johnson snicker at your rules.

No standing eight count; no kidney belts (weren't allowed until 1931); low blow foul rules have changed; No mouth guards allowed until 1929.

How would Wald feel about going 45 rounds, with no kidney belt, no mouth guard, no manadtory eight count, no neutral corner requirement, no rest period after low blows (the fighter is DQed, or the downed fighter has to beat the count or is counted out.)

You're making a laundry list of adjustments, each time to fantasize, but when Apple wants to make an adjustment for nutrition you call him "childish"? Seems an arbitrary decision to me.

You're not "taking them for what they were."

Hell even the boots have innovated several times over the decades and are much superior today. Does Jack Johnson have to wear circa 1900 footwear? You won't let him gain from today's superior diet, so I guess he needs to wear the old boots as well. You say you only take them as they were.

You all are making this up as you go, and that's fine, enjoy, but don't think there is a right way and a wrong way to fantasize.

To answer your question why (is it wrong to tale older fighters, bur envision them with modern training), is because it contradicts the general premise of the question.

Most modern heavyweights are bigger for two reasons: 1 they were raised in a post ww2 society that allows for healthier lifestyles and a taller populace. And 2, and this is the big one, they believe in modern training techniques, which they feel allowsthem to carry extra weight, without sacrificing much in way of speed, stamina, etc.

To re-imagine the question where older fighters are allowed to use modern techniques, in order to gain healthy weight for a fight, is essentially admiting that more weight (brought on by modern training) does make modern heavyweights better.