Page 302 in the book “unbeaten”

[them_apples]

SIze without talent means very little.

Size with talent means a ****ing lot!

I'm a short white guy too. Wtf has that to do with evaluating Marciano?

IMO Marciano being white and of Italian descent means he gets more than his share of praise WTF are you talking about?
Valdes beat the man Marciano chose as his next challenger.
Marciano never met a class modern sized heavyweight who was in his prime,just get used to it!

does it though? How many great fighters were great because of size? Foreman? Maybe Lewis? Thats about it actually can’t think of too many its a myth. They all lost to small dudes.

[billeau2]

I think there have been excellent points raised on both sides of this argument. I always count on Pep to validate the historical aspects... He has said he was a history teacher! And situating Marciano properly in that dialectic is crucial... and Pep always seems to come through on these points.

A few of my own thoughts... straight from the gutter! People often assume Marciano fought in a weak era, ditto for Liston. I don't buy that argument. If you watch the fighters, even the journeymen, on average you will see a lot of skills displayed. It is hard to show proof here, but what I see are less ATG guys and a lot better skills from the average workman like fighters... I would implore people to watch when Vlad takes on one of these Ammy trained European fighters, or American heavyweights, and watch how many quantifiable skills you see compared to the average opponent faced by Liston particularly and, to a lesser, but relevant extent, Marciano.

This is not to say that Marciano did not fight some weak opponents, rather it is to qualify the assertion that Marciano was lucky enough to catch the good guys past it, and to feast coming up on easy comp with no caveats. Archie Moore had a hell of a career after losing to Marciano, even though Louis was obviously past it, he was not so far gone when we look at the average age of guys in the heavyweight division. Ditto for Charles and others, who were IMO not easy opponents.

But there are some issues to be acknowledged when we look at Marciano. I do not recall him ever fighting a big strong, athletic heavy weight... For example Abe Simon (who gave Louis fits) or, even Primo the Ambling Alp Carnera. I am torn here lol... I do tend to see it like "Them Apples" in that when I see how Marciano fought, hear from his own mouth (about his perpetual crouch) and see him otherwise in action I cannot imagine him having problems with this type of opponent... But the truth is we just do not know. The difference being: Against the giants today one could argue none of these guys could survive and go 15 rounds because of their horrid conditioning... and let me qualify this: I say this without saying Marciano would necessarily be able to overcome the size difference... I am torn on this point as well... I merely am saying this weakness in today's fighters was NOT the case for the big guys back when... particularly Carnera and Simon. Even Two Ton Toney could fight rounds compared!

Marciano imo had a similar trajectory in some respects to Tyson. Mike fought a lot of cans coming up and dealt with them in spectacular fashion. When we look at later Tyson there is a split: Some say he was exposed, others say he lost skills. Who really knows? I mean Hollyfield is just too good (BMK!!) to say "ohh prime Tyson would have bit both ears off and then knocked him out!

[Bronson66]

In regards to Marciano's rise to contender and his weak resume, leading to his title opportunity:

Al Weill was well connected to Frankie Carbo and the IBC.

They had a large Italian boy who could hit. Carbo liked that and in IMO was more than happy to facilitate Rocky's rise to a title shot.

If Marciano was fed weak opponents until Marciano's 35th fight (Layne) then you can call it, if you want, cherry picking, protection, or great management, they are, in prize fighting synonyms.

I doubt, and even feel certain in that doubt, that Rocky Marciano never once had a say who his opponent would be.

When that opportunity did come Rocky Marciano delivered in spades and then proceeded to take on all the top names avaiable, in the IBC.

In regards to Valdes: I once again argue that he was squeezed out not by "Marciano" but because if Valdez won, he and the HW title would have been out of the control Carbo/IBC. They were never sure Marciano would ever actually win or hold the title but wanted him in the lime-light.

Carbo had the power to influence who got title shots but never tried to fix title shot. (Continue reading for why.)

The IBC in 1949 used/bought-off Joe Louis to create the IBC by signing all the top heavyweight contenders' managers to the association. **

According to Samuelson, Beyond the Ring, Louis succeeded in signing eight of the top ten Ring ****zine's 1949 HWs (managers) and then had his stock options bought-out for much needed cash in 1951.

This control then allowed the IBC to force the venues (who were very willing to do so for a piece of the action) to enforce State 'closed-shop' union laws and give preference to fighters managed by IBC associates.

IMO Carbo/IBC quickly learned there was much more money in selling razor blades, e.g. NBC's Gillete's Cavalcade of Sports)l, then there was in fixing fights for small change risking bad TV ratings.

Rocky, as an Italian (semi-white) HW Champion could help revive the fight game (which had fallen into the dulldrums with the Charles-Walcott trilogy,) and consequently increased Nelson Ratings helping to produce the 'golden age of television boxing.' (1952-1957).

This is probably best exemplied by the pre-title Louis-Marciano fight, that became boxing's first successful closed-circuit televised event in 1951.

This was Carbo's, (who had morped into more of a TV producer than a gangster) new main objective.

In conclusion, IMO, to evaluate a fighter's prowess by examing his resume in a vacuum, absence of the political and money elements involved, is to do a diservice to the fighter's legacy. Marciano could only fight those Weill/Carbo chose for him to fight.

Marciano never had a say in who he fought.

** The IBC was actually a fight managers association the controlled fighters indirectly through the managers. When the IBC was dismantled in 1958 it was under anti-trust laws, as it was denied its 'labor union status) but no charges were ever filed against it. ***

Frankie Carbo (and buddy 'Blinky' Perlamo were convicted later, in 1960, for the extortion of a single (illegal Mexican fighter the FBI found homeless on the streets of Los Angeles.

*** If you ever wonder why Congress chose to give Majr League Baseball an anti-trust exception as our "National Pasttime.' It may well have been forced on them, for MLB was doing nothing different than the IBC had been doing all along. It seems Congress had multiple definitions of the 'equal pprotection clause of the Consitution.

One last thought. Considering that during the 'golden age of television boxing, four different networks, on average, were televising three fight cards a month, (or a total of 12 televised fight cards each month) had the IBC not been there to organized the fragmented game of prize fighting it is unlikely the TV networks could have created that 'golden age.'

While monopolies are never good for all the participants (see MLB before 1973) they always offer efficiency (for a price).

Speaking just for myself,Ive never said or implied Marciano had any input in the choice of his opponents.
He was however fortunate that his manager was basically a stooge for Carbo, and also the MSG matchmaker,to avoid this conflict of interest Weill's son Marty was nominally Marciano's manager just as in later years Carl King filled that role of Don, but everyone knew who was the real manager.
Them Apples claim that Marciano suffered because he was White and Italian is frankly ludicrous. If he had been black there is a strong possibility we would never have heard of him.

Carbo fixed fights , Lamotta v Fox Gavilan v Saxton,Gavilan v Graham,a couple of Jimmy Carter's and some of these were for world titles.

Sometimes they got to the fighter.Lamotta,and Carter,and sometimes to officials.

I think you are mixing the IBC up with the Fight Managers Guild which black balled fighters who did not sign with managers who belonged to the guild.That's how they controlled and owned Clarence Henry,Ike Williams,Jimmy Carter,Billy Fox,Johnny Saxton and a host of others.Both were of course controlled by Carbo and Palermo
Ray Arcel who had a boxing show Saturday Night Fights refused to play ball with the IBC and the "Guild" and was hit on the head with a lead pipe.He suffered a severe concussion and was hospitalized,out of hospital he retired for a while and his shows were cancelled.
The IBC superseded Jacobs and his 20th Century Club when he had his 2 strokes and bought him out,for $100,000. Truman Gibson handled all the legalities for the IBC until 1961 WHEN, along with Carbo ,Palermo,Joe Sica and Luis Dragna he was convicted of extortion and conspiracy.

,Norris was the titular president of the IBC,but Carbo was pulling his strings. When the IBC pushed the ailing Jacobs out they then had the sole right to promote boxing at the Garden.and they put Al Weill Rocky's manager in place as the matchmaker

From 1949 until1955 there were 51 championship fights,the IBC promoted 47 of them.

[Willie Pep 229]

There is one more statement I need to add to my already too long assessment.

Jack 'Doc' Kearns was one of the few managers who refused association with the IBC.

This why he was forced to stage his Maxim-Moore LHW title shots in Utah and Miami, away from the controlled venues.

So, considering the situation with the IBC and Marciano (and its desire to control the HW title,) it should come as no surprise that Moore broke off his relation with Kearns in 1954-55 after several disputes, and then found the NY venues and the IBC friendly towards him, resulting that autumn (of 1955) in a title fight with Marciano.

[Bronson66]

There is one more statement I need to add to my already too long assessment.

Jack 'Doc' Kearns was one of the few managers who refused association with the IBC.

This why he was forced to stage his Maxim-Moore LHW title shots in the northwest, away from the controlled venues.

So, considering the situation with the IBC and Marciano (and its disire to contol the HW title, it should come as no surprise that Moore broke off his relation with Kearns in 1955 and then that autumn got a shot at Marciano.

Kearns was never officially Moore's manager,after Johnson Moore never had one,but your point is well taken.

[them_apples]

Ezzard Charles fights just like James Toney. His style is dangerous to get agressive with because he baits and counters. This is why he did well against heavyweights, as well as Toney. The big guy goes to hit his head which apparently is there to be hit, only it isn’t- and in missing they run right into a counter shot. Over time they start hesitating and trying to adjust. The only option they have is to jab and rough him up inside. But a big rangy man might not actually do so well at this especially considering it may not be something they normally do.

Styles are much more important than weight or size. Not to say weight and size aren’t factors - they are only measured factors in certain style matchups.

I would expect Marciano, Frazier and even Tyson to all have good chances of beating Charles. Because they get so close to him due to their builds they have a better chance of hitting him and overpowering him.

someone like Lewis, Foreman or Ali might actually struggle bad against Charles. B/C class fighters like Lyle, Cooney or Wilder might end up getting wooped badly

[Bronson66]

Ezzard Charles fights just like James Toney. His style is dangerous to get agressive with because he baits and counters. This is why he did well against heavyweights, as well as Toney. The big guy goes to hit his head which apparently is there to be hit, only it isn���¢��������t- and in missing they run right into a counter shot. Over time they start hesitating and trying to adjust. The only option they have is to jab and rough him up inside. But a big rangy man might not actually do so well at this especially considering it may not be something they normally do.

Styles are much more important than weight or size. Not to say weight and size aren���¢��������t factors - they are only measured factors in certain style matchups.

I would expect Marciano, Frazier and even Tyson to all have good chances of beating Charles. Because they get so close to him due to their builds they have a better chance of hitting him and overpowering him.

someone like Lewis, Foreman or Ali might actually struggle bad against Charles. B/C class fighters like Lyle, Cooney or Wilder might end up getting wooped badly

"I will dig up the 5 minute quote just to appease you though, when I get home from work."
You said this16 days ago.

You sure work long hours! LOL

[them_apples]

"I will dig up the 5 minute quote just to appease you though, when I get home from work."
You said this16 days ago.

You sure work long hours! LOL

Thats literally the only one I haven't sourced. And the true answer is it was 20 minutes! It was enough to grab 2000 dollars from the bank.

why do you waste your time fussing about this particular point ? I am curious. I want to debate boxing not nonsense.

I can’t find the quote were 5 minutes substitutes the time it took for Ali to get back in the ring and get his 2000 dollars. It doesn’t matter though in regards to what we are debating. You can be so frustrating to debate with because your agenda isn’t always about making sense.

if you are just trolling its a waste of time. There aren’t many historical boxing forums around. You are wasting my time and your own time.

[Bronson66]

Thats literally the only one I haven't sourced. And the true answer is it was 20 minutes! It was enough to grab 2000 dollars from the bank.

why do you waste your time fussing about this particular point ? I am curious. I want to debate boxing not nonsense.

I can�t find the quote were 5 minutes substitutes the time it took for Ali to get back in the ring and get his 2000 dollars. It doesn�t matter though in regards to what we are debating. You can be so frustrating to debate with because your agenda isn�t always about making sense.

if you are just trolling its a waste of time. There aren�t many historical boxing forums around. You are wasting my time and your own time.

If you want to debate boxing .

Don't make agenda driven posts that are solely designed to hype up you hero!

Don't make statements that you have invented and try and pass them off as primary sourced facts.

Don't ascribe quotes to people that there is no record of them having made.

Don't hype a fake, pulled punches, soft spar and attempt to turn it into solid evidence that Marciano beat up Ali.

Don't make posts on Marciano that are just a nauseous litany of juvenile ass licking.


I have sources to cover my statements otherwise I would not make them.
Regarding the sparrring in question I have Pacheco's 2 books and Angelo Dundee's recollections,you have NADA.

[them_apples]

If you want to debate boxing .

Don't make agenda driven posts that are solely designed to hype up you hero!

Don't make statements that you have invented and try and pass them off as primary sourced facts.

Don't ascribe quotes to people that there is no record of them having made.

Don't hype a fake, pulled punches, soft spar and attempt to turn it into solid evidence that Marciano beat up Ali.

Don't make posts on Marciano that are just a nauseous litany of juvenile ass licking.


I have sources to cover my statements otherwise I would not make them.
Regarding the sparrring in question I have Pacheco's 2 books and Angelo Dundee's recollections,you have NADA.

This is all cryptic though. I can’t figure out if you are trolling or serious.

for example everyone knows the computer fight was a fake fight.

I don’t think it was real and never said it was.

what I posted about was documentation of what went on behind the scenes when you put a guy like Marciano in with Ali and telll them to spar. It heats up.

Any real boxing fan knows these 2 would have a hard time fooling around for 50+ rounds of sparring (whatever it was)

because there were ringside observers there it gives interesting info as to how it went down.

very often a sparring session is what sets the outcome for a fight. For example:

Holyfield knew he would beat Tyson after sparring him
Greb knew Dempsey would duck him after sparring him
Marcianos wife said she was positive Marciano would beat Ali (after the sparring sessions). This video is on youtube simply search Marcianos wife talks about Ali.

because this is a fantasy fight and we don’t know the outcome, all of this is interesting info for a boxing fan.

MOST people don’t give Marciano a chance. They don’t see his style. They see a short white guy who swings.

I make these posts because I am almost positive Marciano get’s to Ali late - based on styles and temperament. If Joe could do it Marciano is gonna do it only hell finish the job.

Ali is faster and rangier than Marciano but he can’t punch down. Just like Joe couldn’t punch down. To make matters worse Ali has no uppercut. He has jabs and crosses and aims at the head. He’s not a huge puncher. Ali’s proportions show he is mostly legs with a short torso.

by viewing the sparring session even as they play around its easy to see Ali would have a hard time keeping him off, let alone a 29 year old Rock. He couldn’t keep Frazier off of him for the same reasons. So he’s forced to lie on the ropes and take breaks. Marciano crushes his arms not just his body. In fact one of the biggest complaints from Ali during the sparring session was the blows to his arms that were debilitating.

another thing I like to do is reverse roles. Marciano was 45 and 13 years out of the ring. With no tuneups or anything.