Michael Moorer top 20 all time heavyweight scenario

[JAB5239]

Because Tunney was never knocked out cold by a 45-year old man.

But what if he retired before that? He would have had an ATG on his resume.

[Tatabanya]

But what if he retired before that? He would have had an ATG on his resume.

Then we could make a case for Buster Douglas being in that Top 20 as well.

Let's face it, Moorer's best wins before beating Holyfield were probably Alex Stewart and Bert Cooper (who nearly knocked him out). Holyfield alone is not enough for me to place him in that list.

[JAB5239]

Then we could make a case for Buster Douglas being in that Top 20 as well.

Let's face it, Moorer's best wins before beating Holyfield were probably Alex Stewart and Bert Cooper (who nearly knocked him out). Holyfield alone is not enough for me to place him in that list.

I agree with both you and The D3vil 100% it's for these same reasons I can't place Tunney on a top 20 all time heavyweights list. Beating an ATG in .y opinion doesn't warrant automatic inclusion, it should be a whole body of work that determines greatness. On the flip side it's impossible to not rate Tunney as an ATG at 175, but I don't think what was done in that division should count towards another division.

[Willow The Wisp]

Tunney was not Greb's master. Most reports have them splitting 2-2-1. All but the first (Greb win) and last (Tunney win) closely contested. But that is beside the point because triangle theories don't work. If they did you would have to take into account Holyfields two wins over Tyson. Because he beat Tyson doesn't mean Moorer would and should not be credited as such. I think Tunney is an all time great lightheavy, but his body of work at heavyweight in my opinion doesn't make him an all time great at that weight. If it does than surely Moorer deserves consideration. And mind you, I don't believe Moorer is or deserves a top 20 all time ranking either even if he did retire after beating Evander, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Associated Press, March 28, 1925

Whatever doubt existed as to the superiority of Gene Tunney, American light heavyweight champion, over Harry Greb, former holder of the title, was dispelled today as a result of Tunney's decisive victory over the world's middleweight titleholder here last night.

Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling, varied only by a rare flash of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating body attack.

[billeau2]

Would Micheal Moorer be considered an all time top 20 heavyweight if he retired after beating Holyfield for the Heavyweight championship?

I am a big Michael Moorer fan! He really did look his best that fight. Lol, it would have left him wafting on quite the high note... Hard to say because while Holly was quite the scalp, Moorer was best at light heavy and always inconsistent... witness the rematch of that fight as a perfect example of this inconsistency. Again: a really good light heavy should be a credible challenge to the heavyweight top of the division... Even if they do not win.

Big picture says... "Heavyweight division often does not have a plethora of great fighters challenging." To balance this out, if we assume there are still some conditions that make the division relatively open, given that disparities in weight are acceptable, to a degree not acceptable at catchweights, and open enough, so that a great light heavy, or cruiser, can provide a challenge to the reigning champion, then there is a natural balance ensuring good competition in the division. Light heavies can even grab low hanging fruit in the division. Bob Foster fought well at heavyweight, losing virtually all his fights, but providing competition during a time when the division was strong.

[billeau2]

But he is seen as a great lightheavyweight that was avoided by the best fighter that division had at the time. Had he retired after beating prime Evander there is no scenario that could propel him into the top 20 as an undefeated fighter and heavyweight champion?

I rate him highly as a light heavy, easily top 20 probably top 10, maybe just after top 5, depending on which way the wind blows lol. I am going to borrow a page from "the Devil" AKA our poster and outline a few criteria that I use:

1. A fighter's record
2. A fighter's Actual abilities as viewed from tape, with no regard for decisions, etc.
3. Any other variables that might be unconventional, but matter.
4. At least some consideration for how they perform at their best.

Moorer showed tremendous ability when viewed on tape. Moorer also had a reputation in the premier boxing gym, perhaps, at the time, in the nation, as a fighter's fighter, who ruled the roost (Kronk Gym Detroit).

[Bronson66]

Because Tunney beat Dempsey twice.
Because Tunney beat a boatload of great fighters.
Because of the many heavyweights whom Happy Greb wipped, and Tunney was his master.
Because less than 19 persons have ever lived who the majority of experts would pick over Tunney over 15 rounds.
Because strenuous analysis of body of work, resume, historical impact and recorded images all place Tunney as a top 20 heavyweight.

Dempsey had been out of the ring for 3 years for their 1 st fight and may have finished the job in their 2nd if he had gone to a neutral corner.
Which heavyweights Greb whipped is another matter entirely.
Apart from Dempsey , which heavyweights of any great note did Tunney beat?
The only top ten ranked ones he fought were
Dempsey twice.
Heeney Best win Risko.
Gibbons Having his last fight 34 years old.
Spalla Lost everytime he stopped up in class.
That is not a body of work at HEAVYWEIGHT to justify inclusion in a top twenty all time HEAVYWEIGHT list.imo

[JAB5239]

Associated Press, March 28, 1925

Whatever doubt existed as to the superiority of Gene Tunney, American light heavyweight champion, over Harry Greb, former holder of the title, was dispelled today as a result of Tunney's decisive victory over the world's middleweight titleholder here last night.

Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling, varied only by a rare flash of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating body attack.

That my friend does not make him Greb's master, it only means he decisively won the last fight, just as Greb had decisively won the first, with 3 others closely contested.

[Bronson66]

Associated Press, March 28, 1925

Whatever doubt existed as to the superiority of Gene Tunney, American light heavyweight champion, over Harry Greb, former holder of the title, was dispelled today as a result of Tunney's decisive victory over the world's middleweight titleholder here last night.

Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling, varied only by a rare flash of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating body attack.

1925 Tunney was 181lbs Greb 167lbs.14lbs advantage

1923Tuney was174lbs Greb 165lbs..9 lbs advantage

The decision in Tunney's favor was hotly disputed. Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post thought that Greb was robbed as did various other experts, including Commissioner William Muldoon, who called the verdict "unjustifiable". 19 of 23 newspapermen at ringside believed Greb should not have left the ring without his crown. 15 voted for Greb, 4 for Tunney and 4 voted for a draw. Greb was the aggressor and Tunney the counterpuncher. Greb was made to observe the rules closely and this undoubtedly curbed his usual "free-wheeling" style.

[Willie Pep 229]

That my friend does not make him Greb's master, it only means he decisively won the last fight, just as Greb had decisively won the first, with 3 others closely contested.

Ah! I have returned to our "Greb" debate. I shall once again attempt to help you lurch uncontrolling into the light.

1. Greb was feather fisted.

2. Only the February 1923 New York (MSG) fight (Tunney UD) was actually contested. The 1922 loss to Tunney was only contested by the Pittsburg press. That doesn't count.

3. Tunney gave Greb a December 1923 rematch and beat him with out contention.

That makes the record Tunney's way:

2-1-1-&1 (Contested Tunney victory.)

When a fighter wins the first fight and loses the rest, it is the latter fighter who was supIerior.

Ali was superior to Frazier. LaMotta won the second of his fights with Robinson, then Robinson won the next four. Robinson was the superior fighter.

Tunney was the superior fighter.

Greb was a MW and would have oly continued to lose to Tunney, as Tunney filled out.

Ever see Tunney in the Pre-fight photo for the first fight? Tunney wasn't what he would become. Greb got lucky to catch him that early, and to cut him that early.

Greb-Tunney 1922

grebtunneyinringbeforefigh.jpg

A 1927 Tunney standing up to a Dempsey rush.

699670_ab3e695f858c44e4947dafdc682f12da_mv2.jpg